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Switch to Forum Live View Qur'an mentioning the 1st 5 books and psalms
2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:00PM #1
Dudette
Posts: 137
Hello everyone!

Since I have finished the equivalent of the book "Old Testament for dummies", this should be my last question, at least for a while.

I would like to know what you think of the Coran referring to the Torah and Psalms as their Scritures.
Islam being a continuity religion, it makes sense that we find some of what's written in the Tanakh and New Testament.

Have a lovely day...Dudette!
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:02PM #2
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:00PM, Dudette wrote:

Hello everyone!

Since I have finished the equivalent of the book "Old Testament for dummies", this should be my last question, at least for a while.

I would like to know what you think of the Coran referring to the Torah and Psalms as their Scritures.
Islam being a continuity religion, it makes sense that we find some of what's written in the Tanakh and New Testament.

Have a lovely day...Dudette!



Well, Muslims don't consider the Jewish scriptures to be "their" Scriptures, not the same way that Christians do.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:29PM #3
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,812

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:02PM, nieciedo wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:00PM, Dudette wrote:

Hello everyone!

Since I have finished the equivalent of the book "Old Testament for dummies", this should be my last question, at least for a while.

I would like to know what you think of the Coran referring to the Torah and Psalms as their Scritures.
Islam being a continuity religion, it makes sense that we find some of what's written in the Tanakh and New Testament.

Have a lovely day...Dudette!



Well, Muslims don't consider the Jewish scriptures to be "their" Scriptures, not the same way that Christians do.




Actually Dudette is right. The Qur'án states that the Torah was sent by Allah and the Gospel after that. The Qur'án states that the revelations received by Muhammad represent the latest Book from God to which the Jews and Christians must turn to. In fact, the Qur'án states that for every period there's a Book but many Muslims refuse to accept that there's any further Book that can abrogate Qur'ánic teachings.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:37PM #4
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:29PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Actually Dudette is right. The Qur'án states that the Torah was sent by Allah and the Gospel after that. The Qur'án states that the revelations received by Muhammad represent the latest Book from God to which the Jews and Christians must turn to. In fact, the Qur'án states that for every period there's a Book but many Muslims refuse to accept that there's any further Book that can abrogate Qur'ánic teachings.




I thought that the true Torah and the true Gospel had been corrupted in the received texts called by those names, and that the Qur'an is the pure teaching of Allah - and that consequently discrepancies between the Torah and the Gospel on the one hand and the Qur'an on the other are the result of errors in the former texts.


Otherwise, wouldn't Muslims study the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures together with the Qur'an the same way the Christians regard the Old and New Testaments?


The Mormons hold the Book of Mormon to be a third part of a trilogy together with the Old and New Testaments; it was my understanding that the Qur'an is sufficient and complete without reliance on these earlier texts.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 2:27PM #5
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,812

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:37PM, nieciedo wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:29PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Actually Dudette is right. The Qur'án states that the Torah was sent by Allah and the Gospel after that. The Qur'án states that the revelations received by Muhammad represent the latest Book from God to which the Jews and Christians must turn to. In fact, the Qur'án states that for every period there's a Book but many Muslims refuse to accept that there's any further Book that can abrogate Qur'ánic teachings.




I thought that the true Torah and the true Gospel had been corrupted in the received texts called by those names, and that the Qur'an is the pure teaching of Allah - and that consequently discrepancies between the Torah and the Gospel on the one hand and the Qur'an on the other are the result of errors in the former texts.



The Muslim views on the matter are rather diverse. The mainstream position indeed regards the Gospel as corrupted while, interestingly enough, a fewer number of scholars regard the Torah corrupted. This is mainly due to the strict Qur'án-like monotheism in the Tanakh as opposed to the more ambivalent "monotheism" in the NT. The Qur'án is explicit that the term "Son of God" in reference to Jesus is blasphemy (while curiously the Qur'án does not deny immaculate conception). Hence the Qur'ánic term "Son of Mary". The Qur'án doesn't contain similar explicit criticisms of terms used in the Torah.


Almost all Muslims believe that the Qur'án replaced both and abrogated past commandments (whilst confirming others). The New Testament treats the Old Testament in much the same way of partial abrogation and partial confirmation as the Qur'án treats the Torah.


Many Muslims indeed study the Torah and the NT together with the Qur'án. Ibn at Discuss Islam is one of them. You'd be right to state that the Qur'án is considered by the Muslims as "perfect" and hence sufficient as a stand-alone Book, while the Christians do not seem to view the NT as a sufficient stand-alone revelation.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 2:57PM #6
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Cool. Thanks for the explanation!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 3:25PM #7
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,212

Dudette


Islam is a supersessionist religion and holds that Christians and Jews are wrong and that only Islam has the truth.


The Qur'an contains numerous factual errors and misrepresentations of Judaism and Christianity, Jews and Christians. Familiar bible stories are re-written in altered forms in the Qur'an. There is also no direct link between Islam and either Christianity or Judaism. Islam adopted, adapted and altered the Jewish Patriarchs, Matriarchs, prophets and historical, cultural and societal figures and adopted and transformed Jesus. Often these alterations and transformations bear little or no resemblance to the actual persons as they are believed to have been by Christians and/or Jews. Mohammed was neither Christian nor Jew, did not descend from Abraham or the Jewish people, and has no known connection with or to either Judaism or Christianity. Mohammed was was either ignorant or dismissive of both Judaism and Christianity.  


Although the Qur'an specifically states that when there is a question, Muslims should follow Torah, they do not do so. They also do not study either Torah or the Christian Gospels and even when they have some passing knowledge or either they view them through the lense of the way Torah and the Christian Gospels are presented in the Qur'an. (This is to be expected and is not a problem as long as one stays within Islamic theology and thought. It causes all sorts of havoc in inter-faith dialogue)   


Needless to say, you will find that most Muslims will tell you that they are respectful of both Christianity and Judaism, of the teachings of those religions and of the historical, cultural and religious figures of those religions. Within the constraints of Islamic thought they are. When looked out from outside of Islam they are not. You should make up your own mind as to how you view the adoptions, adaptations and alterations. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 12:35AM #8
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,812

Apr 11, 2012 -- 3:25PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Dudette


Islam is a supersessionist religion and holds that Christians and Jews are wrong and that only Islam has the truth.


The Qur'an contains numerous factual errors and misrepresentations of Judaism and Christianity, Jews and Christians. Familiar bible stories are re-written in altered forms in the Qur'an. There is also no direct link between Islam and either Christianity or Judaism. Islam adopted, adapted and altered the Jewish Patriarchs, Matriarchs, prophets and historical, cultural and societal figures and adopted and transformed Jesus. Often these alterations and transformations bear little or no resemblance to the actual persons as they are believed to have been by Christians and/or Jews. Mohammed was neither Christian nor Jew, did not descend from Abraham or the Jewish people, and has no known connection with or to either Judaism or Christianity. Mohammed was was either ignorant or dismissive of both Judaism and Christianity.  


Although the Qur'an specifically states that when there is a question, Muslims should follow Torah, they do not do so. They also do not study either Torah or the Christian Gospels and even when they have some passing knowledge or either they view them through the lense of the way Torah and the Christian Gospels are presented in the Qur'an. (This is to be expected and is not a problem as long as one stays within Islamic theology and thought. It causes all sorts of havoc in inter-faith dialogue)   


Needless to say, you will find that most Muslims will tell you that they are respectful of both Christianity and Judaism, of the teachings of those religions and of the historical, cultural and religious figures of those religions. Within the constraints of Islamic thought they are. When looked out from outside of Islam they are not. You should make up your own mind as to how you view the adoptions, adaptations and alterations. 




Wow, rocky. You're incorrigible, aren't you. Wink


Thanks for your barrage of opinions. I was hoping for some reliable citations to support your uninterrupted string of rather damning accusations against Islam. So far your attempts to prove your points by reference to reliable scholarship haven't been as impressive as the vitriol by which you spout your personal opinions.


I was hoping your Passover would calm you down a bit.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 1:03AM #9
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Apr 12, 2012 -- 12:35AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


 


....Thanks for your barrage of opinions. I was hoping for some reliable citations to support your uninterrupted string of rather damning accusations against Islam. So far your attempts to prove your points by reference to reliable scholarship haven't been as impressive as the vitriol by which you spout your personal opinions.


I was hoping your Passover would calm you down a bit.





BS"D


I apologize for Rocket's perspective.  The Qu'ran and Islam are not the perpetrators of the evil being enumerated.  But Sufi Islam, exemplified in Bahai for example, has enabled a good reading of Qu'ran and a decent representation of Islam.  Shia and Sunni mainstream sects, however, are propagating those evils that Rocket has cited and they are the majority worldwide - even to the extent of viciously persecuting Bahai as you are well aware.


I wish all Islam was like Bahai.  But mostly Islam persecutes Bahai as infidels which is how non-Muslims are mostly viewed.


Now I know that based upon actions alone Bahai has a place in the world to come whereas  mainstream Shia and Sunni do not.  But things can change.  I encourage anybody who is sick and tired of hearing about the atrocities perpetrated daily in the name of Allah to read the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and Sufism in general.  If anybody wants to see a beautiful practice of Islam and the reading of the Qu'ran that is one place to go IMHO.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:32AM #10
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hello again nieciedo!


Glad to have you back as a neutral source of information! Wink


You write:


Well, Muslims don't consider the Jewish scriptures to be "their" Scriptures, not the same way that Christians do.


I never really looked at it that way but you are right.

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