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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:35AM #81
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:20AM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:12AM, nieciedo wrote:


It's so fun, productive, and rewarding to argue over whose made-up fairy tale is better.




We could talk about your made-up fairy tale but there is no Stalin or Mao board. 




I have no fairy tales, and I don't have any particular investment in either Stalin or Mao. I have a particular investment in you, however.


I am indebted to you, in a way, because you have taught me a great deal about how Jews really are, and you have clarified my opinions of you people. I used to have a misguided romantic delusion about what the Jews have to offer this world, and you JAstor played a key role in enlightening me of my errors.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:51AM #82
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:35AM, nieciedo wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:20AM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:12AM, nieciedo wrote:


It's so fun, productive, and rewarding to argue over whose made-up fairy tale is better.




We could talk about your made-up fairy tale but there is no Stalin or Mao board. 




I have no fairy tales, and I don't have any particular investment in either Stalin or Mao. I have a particular investment in you, however.


I am indebted to you, in a way, because you have taught me a great deal about how Jews really are, and you have clarified my opinions of you people. I used to have a misguided romantic delusion about what the Jews have to offer this world, and you JAstor played a key role in enlightening me of my errors.




I'm not perfect, far from it (never claimed otherwise), but growing up means to stop blaming others for things you can and should take responsibility for. You've come so far in your understanding of Judaism. Really. Your knowledge of Judaism, as demonstrated again and again on this board, is extremely impressive and superior. Nevertheless, stop blaming it or me for not conforming to or falling short of your perception of reality, or your perceived inability to get over that last hump and conform yourself to reality as the Torah sees it.


That last leg of your journey is on you and no one else. It's between you and God. (A Jew is Israel, some who wrestles "with man and God.") The final step is the most difficult, but it is doable. Many others have done so. If you don't, no one will think anything less of you. But stop blaming others for your perceived inability to take that last step or undertake what amounts to a leap in graduated steps that make it doable. Your smart. Very smart. And I bet you're a long stronger than you think you are or that you are making yourself out to be. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 12:56PM #83
Ibn
Posts: 4,946

Apr 17, 2012 -- 4:46AM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:37PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


No Muslim will deny it?


Torah (Taurat in Arabic) is from G-d. It is confirmed in the Qur'an. No Muslim will deny this fact.


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:37PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Really?


Really!


Apr 16, 2012 -- 6:37PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Have you, at any time, read the DI board? Have you even read your own posts?


The confirmation is in the Qur'an and I have never denied what is confirmed in the Qur'an. It's not my problem if you can't understand my posts.



Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


1. Every time you insist that the incorrect descriptions of Torah, Judaism and Jews which appear in the Qur'an are true, you deny Torah; 


rocketjsquirrel,


There is no description of Judaism in the Qur'an or even in the Torah (to my knowledge). How can I deny Torah by insisting that such description is true or false? 


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

2. Every time you deny that the Jewish people are the B'nai Israel, you deny Torah;


In that case, I don't deny that about 3000 of the stiff-necked B'nai Israel were killed by the Jewish people (Exodus 32) and they were blessed for killing them. Why did the Jews deny about 3000 of the B'nai Israel and put them to the sword?


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

3. Every time you deny the Jewish people of today are the Jewish people in the Torah, you deny Torah;


Of course I don't deny that you are probably one of those stiff-necked people. You should feel lucky that Moses did not catch you dancing around the golden calf.


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

4. Every time you state the the Torah was "corrupted", you deny Torah;


Show me where I stated that Taurat has been corrupted?  


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

5. Every time you insist that the covenant between G-d and the Jewish people has expired, or was superseded, or was revoked, you deny Torah;


I have not insisted any of that. You have nothing on me. One thing that I have stated in the past is that the covenant is a two-way covenant. G-d keeps His side of the covenant but if you do not keep all terms of the covenant from your side, YOU have broken the covenant. This does not mean that if YOU break the covenant all Jews have broken the covenant. No, people like JAstor try their best to keep their side of the covenant. Do you? 


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

6. Every time you deny that Jerusalem and Israel was given by G-d to the Jewish people as their inheritance for all time, you deny Torah (you also deny the Qur'an but I do not really care about your lack of faithfulness to that document);


It was not given as inheritance to the stiff-necked people Jewish people. And you know it very well. It was given to the holy people; not to unholy people. This is not denying the Torah but confirming the Torah.


Apr 17, 2012 -- 9:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Basically almost everything you have written on the subject has been a denial of Torah and a denial that the Torah was the gift of G-d.  Your recent words to the contrary are hollow and meaningless and fly in the face of your previous statements.


The problem with you, rocketjsquirrel, is that you are imagining too much about me. My advice to you is that you should learn from people like JAstor and keep to the terms of the covenant if you want to be a proper Jewish (B'nai Israel) person. Start with observing the Sabbath as you are required to do. The Jewish friends that I have do just as JAstor does and I have great respect for their faith and practice.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 1:29PM #84
AishJew4ever1
Posts: 18

Shalom and Ibn you are in no place to judge Judaism, but you can if you want. However the Quran has a lot of misintrepreted versions of the truth of the Tanakh. The ignorance of the Islamic point of view today by Muslims is nothing new when it comes to the Torah and Tanakh. Muhammed knew Jewish people in Yathrib which is the current day city of Medina in Saudi Arabia. Muhammed probably knew some self-loathing Jews who knew the Torah and helped Muhammed write the Quran. I don't think Muhammed was even a nice man at all, but a few renegade Jews told Muhammed about Jerusalem which is never even mentioned in the Quran and maybe that is the real reason Imperialist Islam after Muhammeds death made Jerusalem the 3rd holiest city in Islam. What I'm writing is that Jerusalem will never be divided because why should it.?? Yerushaliyim is the holiest place for the Jewish people and I don't care if Islam has 1.6 Billion or more adherents, many non-Jews and non-Muslims will be subjugated when the Messiah comes and G-d is not happy with Muslims trying to divide the land of Israel. If a World War 3 comes Muslims and Islamic-Sympathizers will be surprised when G-d will deliver the Jewish people from thousands of years of persecution by Muslims and Christians. That's all I have to write right now, but the Quran if read with an open mind is not a peaceful book of the so-called Islamic religion of Peace, look at the Islamic Middle-East.!!!

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 3:53PM #85
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,223

Ibn


Apparently, you can not even keep your own statements straight in your mind.


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


1. Every time you insist that the incorrect descriptions of Torah, Judaism and Jews which appear in the Qur'an are true, you deny Torah; 


rocketjsquirrel,


There is no description of Judaism in the Qur'an or even in the Torah (to my knowledge). How can I deny Torah by insisting that such description is true or false? 


IBN


Really? I provided you with any number of descriptions. You decided to say that it didn't refer to Judaism only to what Jews say (even though they don't) so somehow it doesn't count. You were and are mistaken.



Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


2. Every time you deny that the Jewish people are the B'nai Israel, you deny Torah;



In that case, I don't deny that about 3000 of the stiff-necked B'nai Israel were killed by the Jewish people (Exodus 32) and they were blessed for killing them. Why did the Jews deny about 3000 of the B'nai Israel and put them to the sword?


IBN


Funny how you avoid the question, when you should be addressing your own statements.



Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


3. Every time you deny the Jewish people of today are the Jewish people in the Torah, you deny Torah;



Of course I don't deny that you are probably one of those stiff-necked people. You should feel lucky that Moses did not catch you dancing around the golden calf.


IBN


History lesson: The sages tell us that the ones dancing around the calf were the other nations, which came out with the Israelites. While I was there, I certainly was not among those dancing around the calf since, as you see, I am Jewish and not of the nations.



Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


4. Every time you state the the Torah was "corrupted", you deny Torah;



Show me where I stated that Taurat has been corrupted?  


IBN


Go back and read your own statements. My very quick look back shows me that you did so in your post 43 made on December 9, 2011 in the If a convert to Islam apostates thread on the DI board. There are many other instances, but this is the one I found first.



Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


5. Every time you insist that the covenant between G-d and the Jewish people has expired, or was superseded, or was revoked, you deny Torah;



I have not insisted any of that. You have nothing on me. One thing that I have stated in the past is that the covenant is a two-way covenant. G-d keeps His side of the covenant but if you do not keep all terms of the covenant from your side, YOU have broken the covenant. This does not mean that if YOU break the covenant all Jews have broken the covenant. No, people like JAstor try their best to keep their side of the covenant. Do you? 


IBN


Why do you state that G-d is fickle and inconstant? Why do you pretend that either G-d or the Jews have broken the covenant when neither is true? The Covenant is not conditional. It is eternal and unbreakable. If you say you respect the Torah and agree with what is contained therein then you would have to accept that fact.


The covenant is sealed in Chapter 17, when Abraham agrees that the sign of the covenant will appear on the bodies of all his male descendants through circumcision. At the same time, G-d promises:


"I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you. I will maintain My covenant between me and you, and your offspring to come, as an everlasting covenant throughout the ages, to be God to you and to your offspring to come. I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God.”

GEN 17 6-8




Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


6. Every time you deny that Jerusalem and Israel was given by G-d to the Jewish people as their inheritance for all time, you deny Torah (you also deny the Qur'an but I do not really care about your lack of faithfulness to that document);



It was not given as inheritance to the stiff-necked people Jewish people. And you know it very well. It was given to the holy people; not to unholy people. This is not denying the Torah but confirming the Torah.


IBN


Obviously you have not actually read the Torah. You really do not have to go far to begin the discussion and find the promise which is repeated throughout the Torah. The call the parsha Lech Lech'a


Lekh L'kha


Genesis 12:1 - 17:27

This translation was taken from the JPS Tanakh


Chapter 12
1 The Lord said to Abram, Go forth from your native land and from your father's house to the land that I will show you.


2 I will make of you a great nation,
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you
And curse him that curses you;
And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you."

4 Abram went forth as the Lord had commanded him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he left Haran. 5 Abram took his wife Sarai and his brother's son Lot, and all the wealth that they had amassed, and the persons that they had acquired in Haran; and they set out for the land of Canaan. When they arrived in the land of Canaan, 6 Abram passed through the land as far as the site of Shechem, at the terebinth of Moreh. The Canaanites were then in the land.


7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "I will assign this land to your heirs." And he built an altar there to the Lord who had appeared to him. 8 From there he moved on to the hill country east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; and he built there an altar to the Lord and invoked the Lord by name. 9 Then Abram journeyed by stages toward the Negeb.


10 There was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to sojourn there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are." 12 If the Egyptians see you, and think, 'She is his wife,' they will kill me and let you live. 13 Please say that you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that I may remain alive thanks to you."


14 When Abram entered Egypt, the Egyptians saw how very beautiful the woman was. 15 Pharaoh's courtiers saw her and praised her to Pharaoh, and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's palace. 16 And because of her, it went well with Abram; he acquired sheep, oxen, asses, male and female slaves, she-asses, and camels.


17 But the Lord afflicted Pharaoh and his household with mighty plagues on account of Sarai, the wife of Abram. 18 Pharaoh sent for Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me! Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her as my wife? Now, here is your wife; take her and begone!" 20 And Pharaoh put men in charge of him, and they sent him off with his wife and all that he possessed.


Chapter 13
1 From Egypt, Abram went up into the Negeb, with his wife and all that he possessed, together with Lot. 2 Now Abram was very rich in cattle, silver, and gold. 3 And he proceeded by stages from the Negeb as far as Bethel, to the place where his tent had been formerly, between Bethel and Ai, 4 the site of the altar that he had built there at first; and there Abram invoked the Lord by name.


5 Lot, who went with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents, 6 so that the land could not support them staying together; for their possessions were so great that they could not remain together. 7 And there was quarreling between the herdsmen of Abram's cattle and those of Lot's cattle. — The Canaanites and Perizzites were then dwelling in the land. — 8 Abram said to Lot, "Let there be no strife between you and me, between my herdsmen and yours, for we are kinsmen. 9 Is not the whole land before you? Let us separate: if you go north, I will go south; and if you go south, I will go north." 10 Lot looked about him and saw how well watered was the whole plain of the Jordan, all of it-this was before the Lord had destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah-all the way to Zoar, like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt. 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. Thus they parted from each other; 12 Abram remained in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the Plain, pitching his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the inhabitants of Sodom were very wicked sinners against the Lord.


14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had parted from him, "Raise your eyes and look out from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west, 15 for I give all the land that you see to you and your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, then your offspring too can be counted. 17 Up, walk about the land, through its length and its breadth, for I give it to you." 18 And Abram moved his tent, and came to dwell at the terebinths of Mamre, which are in Hebron; and he built an altar there to the Lord.


Chapter 14
1 Now, when King Amraphel of Shinar, King Arioch of Ellasar, King Chedorlaomer of Elam, and King Tidal of Goiim 2 made war on King Bera of Sodom, King Birsha of Gomorrah, King Shinab of Admah, King Shemeber of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar, 3 all the latter joined forces at the Valley of Siddim, now the Dead Sea. 4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled. 5 In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and defeated the Rephaim at Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim at Ham, the Emim at Shaveh-kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in their hill country of Seir as far as El-paran, which is by the wilderness. 7 On their way back they came to En-mishpat, which is Kadesh, and subdued all the territory of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites who dwelt in Hazazon-tamar. 8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar, went forth and engaged them in battle in the Valley of Siddim: 9 King Chedorlaomer of Elam, King Tidal of Goiim, King Amraphel of Shinar, and King Arioch of Ellasar-four kings against those five.


10 Now the Valley of Siddim was dotted with bitumen pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah, in their flight, threw themselves into them, while the rest escaped to the hill country. 11 [The invaders] seized all the wealth of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their provisions, and went their way. 12 They also took Lot, the son of Abram's brother, and his possessions, and departed; for he had settled in Sodom.


13 A fugitive brought the news to Abram the Hebrew, who was dwelling at the terebinths of Mamre the Amorite, kinsman of Eshkol and Aner, these being Abram's allies. 14 When Abram heard that his kinsman had been taken captive, he mustered his retainers, born into his household, numbering three hundred and eighteen, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. 15 At night, he and his servants deployed against them and defeated them; and he pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus. 16 He brought back all the possessions; he also brought back his kinsman Lot and his possessions, and the women and the rest of the people.


17 When he returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh, which is the Valley of the King. 18 And King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him, saying,


"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your foes into your hand."

And [Abram] gave him a tenth of everything.


21 Then the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, and take the possessions for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I swear to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth: 23 I will not take so much as a thread or a sandal strap of what is yours; you shall not say, 'It is I who made Abram rich.' 24 For me, nothing but what my servants have used up; as for the share of the men who went with me-Aner, Eshkol, and Mamre-let them take their share."


Chapter 15
1 Some time later, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision. He said,


"Fear not, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."

2 But Abram said, "O Lord God, what can You give me, seeing that I shall die childless, and the one in charge of my household is Dammesek Eliezer!" 3 Abram said further, "Since You have granted me no offspring, my steward will be my heir." 4 The word of the Lord came to him in reply, "That one shall not be your heir; none but your very own issue shall be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look toward heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He added, "So shall your offspring be." 6 And because he put his trust in the Lord, He reckoned it to his merit.


7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to assign this land to you as a possession." 8 And he said, "O Lord God, how shall I know that I am to possess it?" 9 He answered, "Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old she-goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young bird." 10 He brought Him all these and cut them in two, placing each half opposite the other; but he did not cut up the bird. 11 Birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. 12 As the sun was about to set, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great dark dread descended upon him. 13 And He said to Abram, "Know well that your offspring shall be strangers in a land not theirs, and they shall be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years; 14 but I will execute judgment on the nation they shall serve, and in the end they shall go free with great wealth. 15 As for you,


You shall go to your fathers in peace;
You shall be buried at a ripe old age.

16 And they shall return here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."


17 When the sun set and it was very dark, there appeared a smoking oven, and a flaming torch which passed between those pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I assign this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."


Chapter 16
1 Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. She had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said to Abram, "Look, the Lord has kept me from bearing. Consort with my maid; perhaps I shall have a son through her." And Abram heeded Sarai's request. 3 So Sarai, Abram's wife, took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian-after Abram had dwelt in the land of Canaan ten years-and gave her to her husband Abram as concubine. 4 He cohabited with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem. 5 And Sarai said to Abram, "The wrong done me is your fault! I myself put my maid in your bosom; now that she sees that she is pregnant, I am lowered in her esteem. The Lord decide between you and me!" 6 Abram said to Sarai, "Your maid is in your hands. Deal with her as you think right." Then Sarai treated her harshly, and she ran away from her.


7 An angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the road to Shur, 8 and said, "Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?" And she said, "I am running away from my mistress Sarai."


9 And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Go back to your mistress, and submit to her harsh treatment." 10 And the angel of the Lord said to her,


"I will greatly increase your offspring,
And they shall be too many to count."

11 The angel of the Lord said to her further,


"Behold, you are with child
And shall bear a son;
You shall call him Ishmael,
For the Lord has paid heed to your suffering.
12 He shall be a wild ass of a man;
His hand against everyone,
And everyone's hand against him;
He shall dwell alongside of all his kinsmen."

13 And she called the Lord who spoke to her, "You Are El-roi," by which she meant, "Have I not gone on seeing after He saw me!" 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; it is between Kadesh and Bered. — 15 Hagar bore a son to Abram, and Abram gave the son that Hagar bore him the name Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.


Chapter 17
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am El Shaddai. Walk in My ways and be blameless. 2 I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will make you exceedingly numerous."


3 Abram threw himself on his face; and God spoke to him further, 4 "As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 And you shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I make you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you; and kings shall come forth from you. 7 I will maintain My covenant between Me and you, and your offspring to come, as an everlasting covenant throughout the ages, to be God to you and to your offspring to come. 8 I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God."


9 God further said to Abraham, "As for you, you and your offspring to come throughout the ages shall keep My covenant. 10 Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And throughout the generations, every male among you shall be circumcised at the age of eight days. As for the homeborn slave and the one bought from an outsider who is not of your offspring, 13 they must be circumcised, homeborn, and purchased alike. Thus shall My covenant be marked in your flesh as an everlasting pact. 14 And if any male who is uncircumcised fails to circumcise the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his kin; he has broken My covenant."


15 And God said to Abraham, "As for your wife Sarai, you shall not call her Sarai, but her name shall be Sarah. 16 I will bless her; indeed, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she shall give rise to nations; rulers of peoples shall issue from her." 17 Abraham threw himself on his face and laughed, as he said to himself, "Can a child be born to a man a hundred years old, or can Sarah bear a child at ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "O that Ishmael might live by Your favor!" 19 God said, "Nevertheless, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac; and I will maintain My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring to come. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heeded you. I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and exceedingly numerous. He shall be the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will maintain with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year." 22 And when He was done speaking with him, God was gone from Abraham.


23 Then Abraham took his son Ishmael, and all his homeborn slaves and all those he had bought, every male in Abraham's household, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins on that very day, as God had spoken to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he circumcised the flesh of his foreskin, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 Thus Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised on that very day; 27 and all his household, his homeborn slaves and those that had been bought from outsiders, were circumcised with him.








Parshat Lech Lecha





2001

Go From Your land



In this week's Torah portion, Lech Lecha, the third portion in the book of Genesis, God speaks for the first time to our ancestor Abraham (whose name was still Abram at the time). The first sentence of this Parsha (Genesis 12:1) draws much attention from the commentators. "God said to Abram: 'Go from your land (Lech lecha m'eretzcha), from your relatives, and from your father's house to the land that I will show you.'" Thus begins the journey which will lead Abraham to find the land of Canaan, the Land of Israel that is the destination of the Jewish people throughout the Bible and even today.



www.hillel.org/jewish/archives/bereshit/...





The following is from Judaism 101


The Promised Land 


The history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, and the story of Abraham begins when G-d tells him to leave his homeland, promising Abraham and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson, whose descendants are the Jewish people. The land is often referred to as the Promised Land because of G-d's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.


The land is described repeatedly in the Torah as a good land and "a land flowing with milk and honey" (e.g., Ex. 3:8). This description may not seem to fit well with the desert images we see on the nightly news, but let's keep in mind that the land was repeatedly abused by conquerors who were determined to make the land uninhabitable for the Jews. In the few decades since the Jewish people regained control of the land, we have seen a tremendous improvement in its agriculture. Israeli agriculture today has a very high yield.


Jews have lived in this land continuously from the time of its original conquest by Joshua more than 3200 years ago until the present day, though Jews were not always in political control of the land, and Jews were not always the majority of the land's population.



In the event that you are able to digest this very basic idea, I would be more than happy to help you further.


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Basically almost everything you have written on the subject has been a denial of Torah and a denial that the Torah was the gift of G-d.  Your recent words to the contrary are hollow and meaningless and fly in the face of your previous statements.



The problem with you, rocketjsquirrel, is that you are imagining too much about me. My advice to you is that you should learn from people like JAstor and keep to the terms of the covenant if you want to be a proper Jewish (B'nai Israel) person. Start with observing the Sabbath as you are required to do. The Jewish friends that I have do just as JAstor does and I have great respect for their faith and practice.


IBN


When I wish to take advice on how to practice Judaism from an uninformed Muslim, you shall be the first one I consult. Until then, please spare me your condescending nonsense.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:18PM #86
Ibn
Posts: 4,946

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:54AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


4. Every time you state the the Torah was "corrupted", you deny Torah;



Show me where I stated that Taurat has been corrupted?  


Apr 17, 2012 -- 3:53PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

IBN


Go back and read your own statements. My very quick look back shows me that you did so in your post 43 made on December 9, 2011 in the If a convert to Islam apostates thread on the DI board. There are many other instances, but this is the one I found first.


rocketjsquirrel,


I have just read my above mentioned post. I did not state that the Taurat has been corrupted. Instead, I did state that you are not keeping the Commandment (in the Torah) mentioned in that post. That does not mean that I stated that the Taurat has been corrupted. You misunderstood. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:40PM #87
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,223

Ibn


I did not misunderstand. Would you like me to show you more instances wherein you stated that the Torah (Judaism) was corrupted, or do you think you can manage it?


Now that you have read about the eternal and everlasting covenant between God and the Jewish people are you ready to concede the point? Do you need to see it written again and again in the Torah before you will believe it or is once enough.  If you need to see it more, any good concordance or a good search engine will help you find the applicable portions. 


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:47PM #88
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

BS"D


As Ibn is using the majority reading of the Quran - the good one as opposed to the one used by the fanatics to derogate Jews - I'd like to establish a little background.


One who believes in the veracity of the Quran also believes that the holy texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are of divine origin.


Ibn has stated that belief.


In the second sura of the Quran it states that the People of the Book (Jews) corrupted the Torah.


Apart from the Christian syncretism (the Moslem belief in Iblis = Satan) there is a decent  recounting of the Exodus events as they occur in Torah.  In each case, similar to any decent teacher, the Quran - taking the position of the speaker being Allah himself - is pointing out what  was done right and what was done wrong.  The Sura laments that there are those who are not doing right as was clearly illustrated in the Torah account of Exodus.


This is the literal meaning of the corruption of Torah as defined in Quran.  It is exactly the same argument brought by every prophet.  It is the same argument levelled against ruling establishment in Judea allegedly by Jesus in the Christian holy text.


Many ignorant Moslems abuse the second Sura in speculative and pathetic ways  by falsely accusing the Torah text itself of either being corrupt or somehow not being authentic or an accurate representation of the words of the divine that every Jew heard at Sinai.  This is patently false.


Ibn did not make such a claim AFAIK so I am assuming he means the Quran to mean what it says in the good sense, not in the bad sense (which is, ironically a corruption of Quran in EXACTLY the same way Sura 2 explains the there are Jews corrupting Torah.)


Now I do not approach anywhere near the level of a prophet.  But I know right from wrong.  To use a holy text and wildly speculate bringing in false evidence to bolster unsubstantiated arguments is wrong.  Taking the text in context of the entire Sura is right IMHO.  To ignorantly focus upon a single word "corrupt" without taking into account that the lion's share of the Sura is illustrating EXACTLY what that "corruption" actually is, to me is the height of the abuse of holy texts.  


All sorts of evil come from such abuse.  The use of Sura 2 to call Jews corrupt is one.  Ibn has not resorted to that AFAIK.


To me, the use of the holy text for good is direct evidence of its divine source.  And that means that the abuse of the holy text - used to justify evil - is evidence that its source is not divine.   So rather than indict a holy text based on the actions of evildoers, it is better to rehabilitate the evildoers if possible and not libel the holy text in the same manner as those who abuse it to justify evil.  Evildoers corrupt their holy text.  That is IMHO the big message of Sura 2 - don't do it!!!

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:17PM #89
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,223

Buns


Ibn and many other Muslim posters (particularly on the DI board) has made ther statements concerning the corruption of Torah and Judaism without reference to the Sura. It is stated as an article of faith.


"Ibn) Yeah, this Qur’an is not another copy of the Torah but it is divine writ that confirms the TRUTH that was in the original uncorrupted Torah (Taurat)." Ibn January 4, 2012 post 63Qur'an says thread DI board


"The Torah clearly states that Jerusalem is the Jewish city.



That must be a later addition in today’s Torah. When Muhammad (pbuh) went there, during a night journey, he did not see any board at the City gates that declared, “this is Jewish City” or “you are now entering Jewish City”. Perhaps the Romans had destroyed the Jewish city as there was a lot of garbage where once was the Place of Prostration before Muslims brought it back to Place of Prostration to worship in the holy city. As I stated before, the city is for “muslims” and not for those who had let it become a garbage dump."


from same thread as above


There are probably more instances, but I do not have time to go through all of the past posts.


I can not make a determination concerning which reading of the Qur'an Ibn may or may not be using. I have found there to be little to no difference on this point and absloutely no differnce on the way in which the Qur'an adapts, alters and changes the biblical narrative, nor in the level of respect or lack thereof for the religious traditions and/or texts of Christians and Jews evidenced in Islamic thought.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:39PM #90
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Apr 17, 2012 -- 6:17PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


....


That must be a later addition in today’s Torah. When Muhammad (pbuh) went there, during a night journey, he did not see any board at the City gates that declared, “this is Jewish City” or “you are now entering Jewish City”. Perhaps the Romans had destroyed the Jewish city as there was a lot of garbage where once was the Place of Prostration before Muslims brought it back to Place of Prostration to worship in the holy city. As I stated before, the city is for “muslims” and not for those who had let it become a garbage dump."


from same thread as above




BS"D


OK I get it.  That kind of childish ignorance and libel will not be tolerated on this discussion board.  It is not BNet etiquette to discuss the content of other boards here (hint, hint.)  If such things as you have described begin to occur here we will deal with it as it is presented.

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