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Switch to Forum Live View Qur'an mentioning the 1st 5 books and psalms
2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 6:52PM #61
Ibn
Posts: 4,756

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:36PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


The Torah is exactly as it has been throughout recorded history. That is about as good as it gets.


rocketjsquirrel,


What do you mean by "recorded history"? When does the "recorded history of the Torah begin?


Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:36PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

The Qur'an is not exactly as it has been throughout recorded history.


The Qur'an has been the same in text as it was first compiled 1422 years ago from the written verses of the revelations over the previous 22 to 23 years.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:36PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I am told on the DI board that one sect has seen fit to intersperse new material into the Qur'an and has done so fairly recently.


Do not read too much into it. The Qur'an is never going to change, not even by one letter. You were reading about interpretations rather than revealed text of the Qur'an (that is a no-go area for any change ever).


Peace


Ibn 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:38PM #62
Pam34
Posts: 2,650

I'm willing to agree that the Torah hasn't changed, and the Qur'an hasn't changed. I see no real good evidence that either has been substantially altered - what can and SHOULD 'alter' (I would hope!) will be each generation's level of understanding of the meaning of those unchanging letters - what lessons were learned? what lessons CAN be learned? which interpretation is the truest grasp of the true meaning of the Author of Truth?



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 8:44PM #63
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

BS"D


I will suggest one more time that we drop the pissing contest over whose text is a more accurate transmission of somebody else's prophet's words.


NOBODY who is not of the people to whom the respective prophet belongs has ANY legitimate authority to judge anybody else's holy text.


If this mutual disrespect continues I will delete all posts relating to this as it is getting way out of hand.


Thank you all for maintaining the balance of this thread.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:53PM #64
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:44PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


BS"D


I will suggest one more time that we drop the pissing contest over whose text is a more accurate transmission of somebody else's prophet's words.


NOBODY who is not of the people to whom the respective prophet belongs has ANY legitimate authority to judge anybody else's holy text.


If this mutual disrespect continues I will delete all posts relating to this as it is getting way out of hand.


Thank you all for maintaining the balance of this thread.




I understand the need to be politically correct, but there are parts of the Torah and the Gospels and/or the Quran that are contradictory to each other. It is not possible that both or all are right -- in the sense of being of divine origin. 


For example, Deut 13 warns about false prophets and describes as an example anyone who tries to add or subtract even one commandment. When the Gospels come along and say in essence that most of the commandments are not in effect then it is outrighting contradicting Deut 13. Either one is right or the other is right. They both can't be right. 


When the Quran calls the Jewish people cursed it is in flagrant contradiction to numerous verses in the Torah that say the opposite. They both can't be right. A person can't believe both texts to be of divine origin. 


Now, that doesn't mean that a fallible text can't be helpful inspiring people to be better in many instances. It can. (Read Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.) It doesn't even mean it can't be God's way of getting some good stuff into people who might not otherwise accept it (like bubblegum flavored medicine). But if we're mature adults talking about ideas and facts we should be mature enough to understand that not everything everyone says or claims may be true. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:33AM #65
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Apr 15, 2012 -- 9:53PM, JAstor wrote:


 


I understand the need to be politically correct, but there are parts of the Torah and the Gospels and/or the Quran that are contradictory to each other. It is not possible that both or all are right -- in the sense of being of divine origin. 


For example, Deut 13 warns about false prophets and describes as an example anyone who tries to add or subtract even one commandment. When the Gospels come along and say in essence that most of the commandments are not in effect then it is outrighting contradicting Deut 13. Either one is right or the other is right. They both can't be right. 


When the Quran calls the Jewish people cursed it is in flagrant contradiction to numerous verses in the Torah that say the opposite. They both can't be right. A person can't believe both texts to be of divine origin. 


Now, that doesn't mean that a fallible text can't be helpful inspiring people to be better in many instances. It can. (Read Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.) It doesn't even mean it can't be God's way of getting some good stuff into people who might not otherwise accept it (like bubblegum flavored medicine). But if we're mature adults talking about ideas and facts we should be mature enough to understand that not everything everyone says or claims may be true. 





BS"D


I am NOT being politically correct.  You know I don't have the tact for that.  What I am posting is what I believe is Divine Truth.  Ironically, that truth that we learn is that our ways are not the ways of the Divine.  Yet we have the arrogance to assume that we are quite capable of judging somebody else's religion and culture.  That is pointing out a severe logical inconsistency, not a political side-stepping of the issue.


If anyone presumes to know the will of the Divine we know that one is by definition a liar.  But through the ages since Creation our people has created a narrative and a code that unites all of our generations of our people across time into a coherent code of behavior with clear values of right and wrong for our people.  This does not apply to other peoples except in a very specific limited sphere of our interaction.  We do not kill people for not believing the way we believe.  We kill people who come to kill us.  Apart from the religious sectarians who live in self-imposed ghettos there is a clear path for a Jewish person to walk (pun intended) in the real world - that world being mostly comprised of non-Jews.


Torah was not given in a vacuum to justify isolationism and xenophobia.  Rather it was a CORRECTIVE measure to lift us out of the slumber of "slavery" and promote a culture of freedom of heart, mind and will.   We were not delivered from Egypt in order to remake Egypt in our own land.


So, and I post this from personal experience, any of the three texts (Torah, Bible and Quran) can be read in a way to promote evil or a way to promote good.  It is our job to teach our people from generation to generation to read Torah for good.  If Christians and Moslems prefer to teach their children to read their respective Holy texts to promote hatred, violence and destruction of Creation - that responsibility is upon them.


Because of the senseless hatred justified by misplaced zealotry of ideas over human lives we were exiled from our land.  Only the non-religious (Herzl and the WZO) were perceptive enough to actually address this error we made 2 Millenia ago which set brother against brother and destroyed Jerusalem - that evil being the inability to handle the Roman occupation in a positive way, rather resorting to violence.  It was the same error which led to the two previous exiles in our long history.


Now who among us has the arrogance to invent evil where there is none?  In texts that clearly read "kill the Jews" our response has already been commanded yet we do nothing.  As long as the Jewish people are too cowardly to exercise their collective Divine command to preserve their own lives then we have no moral high ground from which to criticise others who are doing what they believe are their Divine commands.  And even if we achieve unity and thus merit Moshiach in our generation, we will still have no right to criticise the ways of other peoples who have their own Divine prophets and their own responsibility to Creation.


So I hear in Islam the evildoers say the Sura about Pigs and Apes means that Jews are animals and cursed by the Divine.  Yet also in Islam, in Iran of all places, I hear the Sura about Pigs and Apes taught NOT to mean that Jews are animals but that one who disobeys the Divine command has lost their human faculties and will bear the consequences.  If the clerics of Iran teach the latter and the clerics of Saudi Arabia teach the former - how can we say it is all evil.  You are saying one is right and one is wrong.  Well one - Saudi Arabia is clearly evil and they make that clear by derogating Jews in their land and the other - Iran is clearly good as it does not use that same holy text to preach hatred and lies.  Yet Israel feels threatened by Iran so that it has to work against them rather than with them to make the most powerful military in the world.  So be it.  That is a choice our leaders have made and we (both nations) will likely die by it.


You maintain that if two holy texts from 2 different peoples are contradicting each other then one is truth and one is a lie?  So by that logic Einstein was the king of liars when he demonstrated that our personal frame of reference is relative to the frame of reference of another in space and time?  And that when a person hangs upside down and reports that when a ball is dropped it falls upward that person is now a liar?  That is utterly preposterous!


I will challenge your assertion.  I have read all three texts over my half century on this Earth and I have found good readings for each of them.  I have even found good readings that can cross the cultural boundaries of people.  I am not claiming that my readings are THE CORRECT AND ONLY READING.  I am not an Ayatollah or a Pope to make such an outrageous claim.  But I do claim that if I, a simple Jew, can read another culture's holy text for good, then greater minds than I can read it at least as well.


So we claim Isaac was the subject of the Akeida.  Islam claims Ishmael.  So what?  Who does that hurt?  But let's not discuss such petty differences that mean nothing.  Lets discuss verses which can KILL people.  Go ahead.  Pick a verse from Quran or Bible that you know evildoers are using to justify their attacks on Jews, Israel, Infidels, Pagans or anything or anybody else.  I will demonstrate that same text can be read in a way that is good rather than justifying evil.  Isn't that a clear demonstration of my point?  The ball is now in your court.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:33AM #66
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,892

This discussion reminds me of the following scene from my mom's all-time favourite movie. (She used to virtually teach us all the lines by heart by loudly repeating them right before they were spoken in the show. I mean how annoying is that?)


The scene starts at 2:16 minutes:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXIdamBEUJE


Kind regards,


Wabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:31AM #67
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

What about the parts of the Torah that are contradictory with itself?


Oh, right, there are no contradictions because the rabbis found creative ways to rationalize them away. 


Well, the same goes for any "contradictions" between the Torah and the Gospels, or the Qur'an. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 1:17PM #68
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 16, 2012 -- 7:31AM, nieciedo wrote:


What about the parts of the Torah that are contradictory with itself?


Oh, right, there are no contradictions because the rabbis found creative ways to rationalize them away. 


Well, the same goes for any "contradictions" between the Torah and the Gospels, or the Qur'an. 




Thanks for your opinion. As usual, it's always interesting. Study of the Oral Tradition, as reflected in the Talmud, is not only not afraid of potential contradictions but is often based on them and discerning from them a new detail of the law. In other words, the Oral Tradition's assumption is not as you assume, that rabbis found ways to rationalize possible contradictions, but that they are part of the Sinai revelation which God clarified to Moshe. One can look at the so-called contraditions as the natural outgrowth of trying to condense an almost infinite body of law in a few verses and words. God told Moshe all the verses and told him how to deal with the natural apparent contradictions, which is what we call Talmudic study.


In any event, the question of potential internal contradictions is different than external contradictions, i.e. contradictions between the Torah and outside texts claiming to be extensions or new revelations. The Sinai revelation came with its own set of rules and internal logic. Engage in Talmud study to find out more about it. The books later claiming to supercede the Torah need to deal with the concepts and rules established in the Torah, the earlier one. E.g. if the earlier one says that it is eternal and not to be changed, then a new one has to deal with that successfully or acknowledge that it contradicts it. 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:17PM #69
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

You've always been one of my most favorite people.


I've learned so much about Jews and Judaism from you.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:20PM #70
Ibn
Posts: 4,756

Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:44PM, Bunsinspace wrote:

I will suggest one more time that we drop the pissing contest over whose text is a more accurate transmission of somebody else's prophet's words.


I did not see it as “pissing contest” but just discussion between mature peoples. This discussion is not going to change any text one way or the other.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:44PM, Bunsinspace wrote:

NOBODY who is not of the people to whom the respective prophet belongs has ANY legitimate authority to judge anybody else's holy text.


Again, it is only a discussion. No one is “judging” anybody else’s holy text. If the Revelation is from G-d, even through one else’s prophet, it is from G-d of everyone. G-d is not G-d of only a select people. For this reason, I am interested in all three “holy texts” as these are all linked to Revelations from the same G-d. One can always learn something new from these holy texts.


Regardless of the written texts, Revelation to Moses imparts to mankind a great guidance and teaches mankind a great deal of wisdom. There is so much that we can all learn from the Torah. In my case, a Muslim is not a Muslim if he denies the Revelation to Children of Israel through Moses. Not only the Torah testifies it but the Qur’an also testifies that through this Revelation Children of Israel became Imams (religious teachers) of the peoples. I have no problem in learning from such Imams guided by the Divine Being. You will not hear a bad word about Moses from any Muslim.


In Arabic, the Torah is mentioned as the Taurat in the Qur’an and a Muslim must believe that the Revelation to Moses of the Taurat is from G-d. No Muslim will ever deny that. Therefore, the common ground between us is that our G-d (Allah in Arabic) is the same as your G-d. Source of “our holy text” and “your holy text” is the same from my point of view. If any Jew does not believe that the Qur’an is from the same G-d, that’s fine with me as it is just what one believes. I won’t regard it “judging” the Qur’an.    


Apr 15, 2012 -- 8:44PM, Bunsinspace wrote:

If this mutual disrespect continues I will delete all posts relating to this as it is getting way out of hand.


Thank you all for maintaining the balance of this thread.


There is no “mutual disrespect” unless one is extremist (extremely sensitive to discussing anything about “his” religious/holy text).  

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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