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Switch to Forum Live View Dont the JW contradict themsleves re Luke 22: 30 - 32
2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 3:28PM #21
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Apr 20, 2012 -- 1:43PM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:

JW use that verse to say only a limited group will go to heaven and when Christ said to the apostles  they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel he include them in the 144 000! But dont they teach the 12 tribes are the 144 000 which is spiritual Israel?     



See goodtobehome's correct responses.


She pointed out that the 144,000 are actually the priesthood - so in different symbolism they would be separate from the 12 tribes as the Levitical priesthood.  Levi was not one of the 12 tribes of literal Israel.   It is a different symbolism - if it were the same, then indeed there would be a contradiction.   In fact, we let the Bible interpret itself in that if an interpretation makes the Bible contradict, we reject that interpretation and opt for the interpretation that preserves the internal harmony of the Bible. 


In short, the 12 apostles judge the 12 tribes, they are not part of the 12 tribes in this illustration but are part of the priesthood - king-priests in fact!



 




Hey Newtonian


In short, the 12 apostles judge the 12 tribes, they are not part of the 12 tribes in this illustration but are part of the priesthood - king-priests in fact!


This is a ridiculous conclusion, in fact the whole thing is just typical WTS man made doctrine. First the twelve tribes are most definitely literal, as i pointed out in your post about messianic prophecy, Israel becoming a nation again is one of the most recent prophecies to be fulfilled, and the 144.000 will be a literal 144.000 men only, who will be witnessing to a literal Israel in the last 7 years of history referred to as great tribulation.


The fact is the Bible prophesied that  Israel will be dispersed in to all the nations, and that prophecy was fulfilled, the Bible said they would come back in to there land have Jerusalem as there capital and have there shekel as there currency, this all happened from 1948.


Johan is correct and has got it spot on.


God Bless You


Denis.


   

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:33AM #22
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

Apr 20, 2012 -- 1:29PM, Newtonian wrote:



Johan - Could you find some way of making it more obvious where you statements are in your post?  


>>Ok I wil try my best !!   



You misrepresent our beliefs so most of your comments do not apply, as they are not what we believe - you should consult the list I linked you to, and our website as a whole, so you can get our beliefs straight!


>>No I dont and it is a fact that I know JW doctrine better than most JW in your Kingdom Hall! It is also a fact I  know even better than  90 % of JW how many languages your Bible is translated in ! Ive ask JW after JW that question and almost everyone of them have a different version and they all are so far of from the official  version given by the WTS ! You dont want to believe me , try a  private poll asking fellow witnesses in you KH  and see what they answer and wrte it down!  


 



We teach a two class resurrection?   Really?   I suppose then you mean the righteous and the unrighteous who are to be resurrected?   To wit:



(Acts



24:15) 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.



Or are you referring to the first resurrection in contrast with those resurrected later?


>>Of course you teach a two class resurrection! Why ?Do you deny that fact? 


>>1)Heavenly class = Raised to  heavenly life in 1918 and the remaining anointed are raised immediately upon death 


>>2)Earthly calss= Raised to paradise earth in the future           



(Revelation



20:4-6) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


 


>>Yes the MARTYRS came to life and reigned with Jesus for a thousand years .They do not reign in te capacity of a goverment but as a kingdom of priest for .     


>>Here is a good place to start learning the real Greek and meaning  re Rev 20: 4 - 6 and Rev 5: 9 - 10 


www.jehovahswitnesstruth.com/THE%20LITTL...  


Really, you have our beliefs so mixed up it is not worth responding to you!  I suggest you research our website and get our beliefs straight!


>>No I dont have your teachings wrong I just love to expose their contradictions !


 >>REV 20: 5 SAYS


>>The rest did not come to live (((Until the 1000 years were ended ENDED))


>>Yet your religion teaches that during the 1000 years it will be a great scale of witnesiing and teaching " What does the Bible teach book " p. 215  


Gee they tell  theyll be doing great educational work to people that according to the Bible will only come to live after the 1000 years ended ! As my favouraite phrase goes  Newtonain! Only JW read their like that !   


 

Moderated by nanalulu222 on Apr 22, 2012 - 04:31PM
The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 3:57PM #23
57
Posts: 20,558

Apr 20, 2012 -- 6:38AM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 5:46AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 8:34PM, 57 wrote:


OK, I'm lost.....how many people will be saved? 144,000? 


I tried to understand the JW view but got tangled in the fogynss of it all.   


Perhaps some JW can dumb it down a bit.  It seems lke anyone reading the bible would not come to their conclusion. 





>>The truth is 57 they actually proclaim and glorify the anointed class with Jesus being  the foremost anointed one ! One only has to listen to a JW speaking for 5 minutes to realize this !      




57 - Don't believe our detractors, like Johann above!  Now, if you listen to our detractors for 5 minutes, you may indeed get their misrepresentations of our beliefs correct - however, our beliefs are accurately represented on our website - for example this list of our primary beliefs and the Scriptural reasons for them:


www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm


A few of the relevant beliefs (to your question):


"Hope for dead is resurrection 1 Cor. 15:20-22; John 5:28, 29; 11:25, 26


.....


Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans Matt. 20:28; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6; 1 Pet. 2:24


Wrong. Matt. 20:28 doesn't even contain the word obedient..neither does 1 Tim. 2:5 nor 1 Pet. 2:24...why should I trust what you say? 


Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient Rom. 6:10; Heb. 9:25-28


.....


People God approves will receive everlasting life John 3:16; 10:27, 28; 17:3; Mark 10:29, 30  


None of the verses you just mentioned above use the word "approved" or any world like it.  Once again why do you feel the need to add to what the bible says?


There is only one road to life Matt. 7:13, 14; Eph. 4:4, 5


.....


Christ set example that must be followed in serving God 1 Pet. 2:21; Heb. 10:7; John 4:34; 6:38"


57 - We believe there will be 144,000 (Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5) who will rule as kings over a "great crowd" (Revelation 7:9-14) of survivors plus "other sheep not of this fold" (John 10:16) plus billions of others who will also be resurrected during Jesus' 1,000 year reign (Acts 24:15).


Will rule as kings over a "great crowd"?  What are you talking about? I read the verse...and ONCE AGAIN what you say....isn't there.  Nothing about ruling and nothing about a kings.  In fact Rev 9:7-14 doesn't even mention the 144,000.  


Our basic beliefs and emphasis is accurately represented on our website:


www.watchtower.org


If the information you posted above was from that website....no thanks. 


We share Jehovah's desire that none be destroyed and all attain to repentance - which is why we are so zealous in door to door sharing of the good news of God's Kingdom as foretold in Matthew 24:14 & Mark 13:10, to wit:


(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.


See the context, of course.


 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 6:20PM #24
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Please GTH where in the CONTEXT of Matt 19 : 16 - 28 is the great crowd ? -- Johan



Look back, Johan, I never said that the '12 tribes of Israel' in that verse represent the great crowd, and I gave at least twice that it meant 'the rest of mankind.'  The 'great crowd' are not 'the rest of mankind.'


“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:57PM #25
Kemmer
Posts: 15,779

Apr 22, 2012 -- 6:20PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Please GTH where in the CONTEXT of Matt 19 : 16 - 28 is the great crowd ? -- Johan



Look back, Johan, I never said that the '12 tribes of Israel' in that verse represent the great crowd, and I gave at least twice that it meant 'the rest of mankind.'  The 'great crowd' are not 'the rest of mankind.'





I'm more interested in the five tribes of the Lakota (Sioux).  Or the 26 tribes of the Innuit.  The tribes of Israel have been extinct for many centuries.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:43AM #26
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,612

 


Apr 22, 2012 -- 6:20PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Please GTH where in the CONTEXT of Matt 19 : 16 - 28 is the great crowd ? -- Johan



Look back, Johan, I never said that the '12 tribes of Israel' in that verse represent the great crowd, and I gave at least twice that it meant 'the rest of mankind.'  The 'great crowd' are not 'the rest of mankind.'





GTH


Read the article again you provided in post 4 to which I responded in your post which says   


 


In Matt 19: 28 and Lukke 22 ....Whom do the 12 tribes picture in the CONTEXT ? They respresent those with an earthly hope ..   !


Every ole good JW knows those with an eathly hope are the great crowd over which the 144 000 rule even Newtonian said it  so nicely ! 


 


Let the mental gymnastics begin GTH! 


 


 


 

The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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