Apr 24, 2012 -- 10:30PM, Svetlana wrote:

Apr 24, 2012 -- 12:21AM, mrjordan wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Svetlana wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 3:28PM, cherubino wrote:

Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:19PM, mrjordan wrote:

Since I was raised Jehovah's Witness I was brought up knowing what happened when when someone dies. Even when I left the Witnesses for awhile I still held on to that belief. The most thought I had about it is when I wanted to come back to the Witnesses. I asked do I want to ensure my death? Or do I want to try for something more? Well, it did not take much thought at all.

In other words, you accepted somebody else's ideas about what happens when we die. Doesn't the fact that none of them have ever been dead send up some sort of a yellow flag?

"Oh wow!  Oh wow!  Oh wow!"  Steve Jobs' last words.  He wasn't dead yet, but he had a glimpse.  Frankly, I don't need to know any more than that - "Oh wow!"

Within a few weeks of Jobs' death, a dear friend died of cancer.  He couldn't speak at the end, but his face broke into the most glorious smile of delight JUST before he died.  Other people have reported the same thing of their loved ones as they died.  I think those reactions give as accurate a description as we're going to get this side of the grave ourselves.

Where was Lazarus for the 4 days he was dead?

How would I know?  I've never met the man to ask him.

If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?

Apr 24, 2012 -- 10:59PM, Theo wrote:

Mr.Jordan:

Where was Lazarus for the 4 days he was dead?

Well his body was in the tomb wrapped up in grave clothes. As for what happened to Lazarus after he died, that cannot be answered directly, meaning that Scripture does not include any references to what happened to Lazarus during those four days. However, one can put together a reasonable scenario for what happened to him from the rest of Scripture.

1) Lazarus died. John 11:11-15 >These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him."

Question ~ do you cease to exist when you sleep? Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping, and sleeping people still exist even if they are "out like a rock" or "dead to the world."

MrJ: Job tells where we go while we "sleep". When we die we are is kept in Jehovah's memory. Until we are recalled back from his memory. There is also a limit for that sleep that only Jehovah knows.

Job 14:12-14

12 Man also has to lie down and does not get up.
Until heaven is no more they will not wake up,
Nor will they be aroused from their sleep.
13 O that in She′ol you would conceal me,
That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?
All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait,
Until my relief comes
15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you.
For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.

2) When Lazarus died, his soul/spirit was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Of course, Scripture does not say that happened to this particular Lazarus, but in as much as he was a friend of Jesus, we can conclude he was a righteous man, after all, that is what happened to another man named Lazarus. Luke 16:20 > So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

MrJ: I read this whole account here at Luke 16:19-31. This looks like an illustration created by Jesus to show that a poor man and rich man may appear more important in life but in death their are roles maybe reversed. Jesus was illustrating what their conversation might be if they could actually talk in the grave. Of course we know that dead bodies don't talk. The rich man, the beggar and Abraham are all in the same place. However when they are judged there will be a chasm between them. This parable is telling a whole other story.

3) There, having endured the pains of death, he was comforted. Luke 16:25-26 > But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

4) Then, after four days, Lazarus heard the voice of the Son of God say... Lazarus come forth! John 11:43-44 > Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go." John 5:28-30 > for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice  and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Question ~ if death means to cease to exist - how can the dead hear the voice of the Son of God?

MrJ: Same answer as above in Job.

5) And having heard His command, the body of Lazarus reanimated, and he jumping out of the tomb as best he could all tied up.

So while I would imagine that Lazarus had a fantastic story to tell, the Gospel of John was not a likely place to tell it... being devoted to the teachings of Christ. Moreover, I believe his story was somewhat commonplace in the first century, not that there were lots of people like him... raise back to mortal life; but there were the saints who were raised from the dead at the resurrection of Christ. Matt 27:51-53 > Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.  

~ Theophilus

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, Svetlana wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:43AM, mrjordan wrote:

If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?

Sure, I'd have told the story, and he might well have done that.  All we know is that we have no written record of anything he might have said about it.  You JWs have this very odd notion that the Bible is complete to the last detail.  I don't know on what you base that assumption, but it is clearly not true. 

So do you think the bible is incomplete?

Also would you be upset if Jesus had brought you back from Heaven back to Earth into a body that was going to die...again?

Note: To the witnesses reading this, I just had the thought of those resurrected after Armageddon. If Lazarus raised back to life on earth, he will be one of the few that will have experienced resurrection twice!

Apr 25, 2012 -- 7:05PM, Theo wrote:

Mr.Jordan:

Also would you be upset if Jesus had brought you back from Heaven back to Earth into a body that was going to die...again?

As I pointed out in my previous post - Lazarus was not in heaven. He would have been at rest being comforted in a place Jesus called, "Abraham's bosom," which Christian tradition says was the "righteous side of Sheol or Hades."

Also, how do you know Lazarus died again - got any Scripture for that??? No more than Christians have about Lazarus' testimony of his death and resurrection. Of course, while we can produce no scripture describing what he experienced while dead - neither can JWs produce one shred of evidence that Lazarus ceased to exist for 4 days. Even so, I am sure, if you really look hard, you might come up with some document written by somebody claiming to have channeled our good friend Lazarus... should be no problem for a spirit medium like the witch of Endor.

> Job 14:10-13 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14-17 > If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands. For now You number my steps, but do not watch over my sin. My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and You cover my iniquity.

Almost sounds like Job was questioning the doctrine of the resurrection. Surely, JWs do not believe that they will remain non-existent, while their bodies rot in the grave, until the heavens are no more!

Mr.J, the way this passage reads - Job despaired for his life, wished for death, and believed he would wait in prison until he hears the voice of God calling to him. Do you know when that was? It was the day the king of Glory lifted up the everlasting gates... and the tombs were opened and the righteous dead were released from Hades.

~ Theophilus

Sometimes theology devolves into self-parody and our sense of the absurd regains its hold on the imagination and --whew-- this is one of those times. This is flat-out the funniest thing I've read since a Catholic priest told me in 1959 that Aristotle was a Thomist.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:20PM, mrjordan wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, Svetlana wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:43AM, mrjordan wrote:

If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?

Sure, I'd have told the story, and he might well have done that.  All we know is that we have no written record of anything he might have said about it.  You JWs have this very odd notion that the Bible is complete to the last detail.  I don't know on what you base that assumption, but it is clearly not true. 

So do you think the bible is incomplete?

Of course it's incomplete.  There isn't a giraffe or penguin in it from cover to cover, and we know almost nothing in detail of first 30 years of Jesus' life.