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Switch to Forum Live View What would you do in heaven?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 9:32AM #61
Kemmer
Posts: 16,641

No, had they obeyed God, they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of life, and lived forever without tasting death... which is why God put them out of the Garden, so they could not eat the fruit of life and live forever in their sins.



Where does Satan the Talking Snake come in?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 9:49AM #62
mrjordan
Posts: 2,207

Apr 15, 2012 -- 10:23PM, Theo wrote:


MrJordan:

Rev 20:7-10  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


MrJ: This seems to describe another judgement. Why didn't God just take care of this in Armageddon?


Because none of the people involved in this judgment were even born at Armageddon. Armageddon happens before the Kingdom age, the battle of Gog and Magog happens after the Kingdom age.


Do you agree that God allows Satan to exist because He uses him to test mankind? If so, God will have Satan released after the 1000 years, to test the souls of men who lived during the kingdom age. Once the Battle of Gog and Magog is over - God's purpose with Satan will be over too, and he will never be heard from again.


If Adam and Eve had never sinned would they have ever died?


No, had they obeyed God, they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of life, and lived forever without tasting death... which is why God put them out of the Garden, so they could not eat the fruit of life and live forever in their sins.  Gen 3:22-24 > Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" - therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


When Adam and Eve died did they go to heaven?


The Bible does not say one way or the other. But given my understanding of Scripture, the answer is no... when they died they descended to Sheol, the place of the dead. No one went to heaven before the resurrection of Christ - Jesus redeemed the dead and freed them from Hades, so that they could ascend to God. As for the question, are they in heaven or hell? I do not believe they were condemned - in as much as God purposed to redeem mankind through the blood of Christ from the foundation of the world. But like everyone else, before Christ, I believe they had to die, and wait in Sheol until the day of their redemption.


~ Theophilus





Will there be people left on Earth after the 1000 year reign?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 1:10PM #63
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:49AM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 10:23PM, Theo wrote:


MrJordan:

Rev 20:7-10  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


MrJ: This seems to describe another judgement. Why didn't God just take care of this in Armageddon?


Because none of the people involved in this judgment were even born at Armageddon. Armageddon happens before the Kingdom age, the battle of Gog and Magog happens after the Kingdom age.


Do you agree that God allows Satan to exist because He uses him to test mankind? If so, God will have Satan released after the 1000 years, to test the souls of men who lived during the kingdom age. Once the Battle of Gog and Magog is over - God's purpose with Satan will be over too, and he will never be heard from again.


If Adam and Eve had never sinned would they have ever died?


No, had they obeyed God, they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of life, and lived forever without tasting death... which is why God put them out of the Garden, so they could not eat the fruit of life and live forever in their sins.  Gen 3:22-24 > Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" - therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


When Adam and Eve died did they go to heaven?


The Bible does not say one way or the other. But given my understanding of Scripture, the answer is no... when they died they descended to Sheol, the place of the dead. No one went to heaven before the resurrection of Christ - Jesus redeemed the dead and freed them from Hades, so that they could ascend to God. As for the question, are they in heaven or hell? I do not believe they were condemned - in as much as God purposed to redeem mankind through the blood of Christ from the foundation of the world. But like everyone else, before Christ, I believe they had to die, and wait in Sheol until the day of their redemption.


~ Theophilus





Will there be people left on Earth after the 1000 year reign?





Hey Mr. Jordan! - On that latter question, Revelatation 20:4-9


And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them."


On that phrase, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended - that is, they are resurrected during the 1,000 years, but whether to eternal life or judgment, as per John 5:28,29 & Daniel 12:2, is not determined until the final test when Satan and his demons are released.   Of course, you knew that - but I posted it for the other lurkers, etc.


Of course, the simple answer is this verse - which shows the righteous will remain on the earth forever:


The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
- Psalms 37:29

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:30PM #64
matica
Posts: 3,067

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:32AM, Kemmer wrote:


No, had they obeyed God, they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of life, and lived forever without tasting death... which is why God put them out of the Garden, so they could not eat the fruit of life and live forever in their sins.



Where does Satan the Talking Snake come in?




So much for jehovah being all forgiving,

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 4:55PM #65
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:05PM #66
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Where does Satan the Talking Snake come in?


Hopefully the talking snake doesn't come back any more. He cause enough problems the first time around.


~ Theophilus

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:45PM #67
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Mr.J:

Will there be people left on Earth after the 1000 year reign?


I certainly hope not... the earth together with all its works are destined to be dissolved with fervent heat, at which time God will create a New Heavens and a New Earth.


2 Peter 3:10-13 >But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. / Rev 21:1 > Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.


Christians, in general, believe that we are evolving toward a much higher level of existence, one that does not require these mortal bodies, so we are not looking for a terrestrial home, with 40 Acers, a nice view and a mule to help us till the soil for eternity. According to this paradigm, mortal existence serves many purposes, procreation and raising children are one of the biggies. But once we pass from this mortal life into the next, we do not believe there will be a further need for procreation... no one will die any more, and thus no one will need to be replaced.


So once this age ends, with Satan being cast into prison for 1000 years, God will give mortal man one last go at things... only this time with no the influence from Satan up-till the very end. Once the age to come has come and gone, I see there being no further need for planet earth, and God being who He is, will simply do away with this sin-scared planet, and start over with a bran-spanking new one... one where the righteous live in peace and where Satan will never darken a door way or slither between blades of grass.


Newt:

On that phrase, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended - that is, they are resurrected during the 1,000 years, but whether to eternal life or judgment, as per John 5:28,29 & Daniel 12:2, is not determined until the final test when Satan and his demons are released.   Of course, you knew that - but I posted it for the other lurkers, etc.


Thanks for posting your position for this lurker... I never really understood how JWs came up with the notion that the Millennial kingdom would be populated by resurrected people living again on the earth.  


I disagree with your interpretation of Rev 21... but you probably know that. I wonder how strong is you case, from reading the three passages you referenced - not very strong at all. Wondering where JWs come up with their off the wall interpretations of these straightforward texts???


~ Theophilus

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:48PM #68
Kemmer
Posts: 16,641

I certainly hope not... the earth together with all its works are destined to be dissolved with fervent heat, at which time God will create a New Heavens and a New Earth.



Probably in orbit around Kolob.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 7:56AM #69
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Well kemmer, I certainly hope not. Remember if you will, that Kolob is supposed to be one of the largest stars in the galaxy... just imagine. Cosmologists will tell you that they do not even bother considering large stars as viable places to find habitable worlds. Just its brightness alone would make that proposition highly improbable. Radiant energy is a highly corrossive power - untra violet light, etc - imagine what that would do to our white robes! LOL.


 Theophilus

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 9:36AM #70
Kemmer
Posts: 16,641

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:56AM, Theo wrote:


Well kemmer, I certainly hope not. Remember if you will, that Kolob is supposed to be one of the largest stars in the galaxy... just imagine. Cosmologists will tell you that they do not even bother considering large stars as viable places to find habitable worlds. Just its brightness alone would make that proposition highly improbable. Radiant energy is a highly corrossive power - untra violet light, etc - imagine what that would do to our white robes! LOL.


 Theophilus




Maybe on the 4th or 5th planet things might be just lovely.

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