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Switch to Forum Live View What would you do in heaven?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 10:24PM #131
Theo
Posts: 4,687

MrJ: Lazarus was in Jehovah's memory, asleep. I don't need a scripture to tell me he died again. Lazarus was not a perfect man, therefore he would die again. Thus back into the memory of Jehovah. Also it would be impossible to channel anyone from the dead since "they are conscious of nothing at all".


Ah, but I need one... I mean if we are to agree. Without a scripture that shows Lazarus died again, or at least had to die again, one could easily argue that... the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life - and thereby conclude that Lazarus did not die a second time, but rather ascended to heaven to be with Jesus - and no one can prove me wrong.


Personally, I find the whole idea of getting stuffed back into the memory of Jehovah a bit disconcerting. It's probably the whole - on/off again, (like a light bulb) thing - I would like to believe we are more than light bulbs at the mercy of a divine power switch. I find my belief, that we survive our mortal probations, far more compelling, not to mention reassuring. The idea of nonexistence, after having existed for 57 years, is more frightening to me than the idea of hell any day. At least I would have my regrets and guilt to keep me company... with non-existence you have nothing; which of course is my great revulsion towards atheism.  As a Christian I can face the prospect of my own death with courage (and have done so) knowing that death will not be the end of me, but that falling asleep to this world means waking in the next. It's the JW fascination with non-existence that I find particularly revolting.


As far as channeling the dead is concerned - I have found that many things I do not believe in are possible.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 10:34PM #132
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:54PM, Theo wrote:


cherubino ~ I think I get your point, I also think it more likely that St. TA was an Aristotle wantobe. Cheers.


~ Theo




No doubt about it. Social change is a constant in all but totally isolated societies, and influences from the surrounding cultural idiom have always shaped the context in which Church doctrine is articulated. To fully appreciate and understand Augustine, you have to read him in reference to his intellectual mentors, Plotinus and the neo Platonists. To understand where Aquinas was coming from, you have to read him in reference to Aristotle and the Islamic philosopher, Averroës. Christianity has never existed in a moral, doctrinal or intellectual bubble, but has always to some degree synthesized and internalized its values and moral priorities in response to the conversational drift that characterizes any particular era.



One of my favorite pieces of co-option trivia is the adoption, adaptation and gradual transformation of Schiller's Ode to Joy as Beethoven originally set it to music as the mighty chorale in his ninth symphony. It then became, in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries, quite the anthem of secular humanism. Here's the story of it, complete with a translation of Schiller's original Ode:



And here's Herbert von Karajan giving it his famous oomph:



Then from the pen of a pious Presbyterian named Henry J. Van Dyke in 1907 came this:



And here 'tis, in its latest reincarnation, resurrected and treasured as an original and traditional Catholic hymn:



 


 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 11:27PM #133
Theo
Posts: 4,687

I liked this one the best // www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm7Rl4slRh4


Always loved the 9th, because of the Ode to Joy - but have to say its adaptation takes it a notch or two higher into the heavenlies. The Second Chapter of Acts did a version of it back in the late 80s or early 90s that really does it for me... www.bing.com/music/albums/detail?q=2nd+C...


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 6:58AM #134
mrjordan
Posts: 2,102

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:24PM, Theo wrote:


MrJ: Lazarus was in Jehovah's memory, asleep. I don't need a scripture to tell me he died again. Lazarus was not a perfect man, therefore he would die again. Thus back into the memory of Jehovah. Also it would be impossible to channel anyone from the dead since "they are conscious of nothing at all".


Ah, but I need one... I mean if we are to agree. Without a scripture that shows Lazarus died again, or at least had to die again, one could easily argue that... the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life - and thereby conclude that Lazarus did not die a second time, but rather ascended to heaven to be with Jesus - and no one can prove me wrong.



MrJ: Actually I will agree with part of this here. There is nothing bibical to say if Lazarus is with Jesus now in heaven or if he held the earthly hope. However his body did still die again. Whether he was raised up at his death to heaven or his is in Jehovah's memory we do not know.




Personally, I find the whole idea of getting stuffed back into the memory of Jehovah a bit disconcerting. It's probably the whole - on/off again, (like a light bulb) thing - I would like to believe we are more than light bulbs at the mercy of a divine power switch. I find my belief, that we survive our mortal probations, far more compelling, not to mention reassuring. The idea of nonexistence, after having existed for 57 years, is more frightening to me than the idea of hell any day. At least I would have my regrets and guilt to keep me company... with non-existence you have nothing; which of course is my great revulsion towards atheism.  As a Christian I can face the prospect of my own death with courage (and have done so) knowing that death will not be the end of me, but that falling asleep to this world means waking in the next. It's the JW fascination with non-existence that I find particularly revolting.



MrJ: Really? Pain and suffering forever?! There is no way, even for those that do not enter into the new system that Jehovah would allow them to suffer forever.


At any rate, we have read where "the dead know nothing". It is our choice to accept this scripture or toss it to the side.


Jehovah has shown us also in the bible that he can resurrect the dead like Lazarus. Even waiting 4 days to show that the amount of time is not a concern to Jehovah.


Of course, those that have died and resurrected will not have the exact same body they used to have. Because those bodies have long since decayed.




As far as channeling the dead is concerned - I have found that many things I do not believe in are possible.



MrJ: The dead have no way of being able to speak to us. For the day that person dies, they are no longer able to think.


Psalm 146:4
"His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish"





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 1:47PM #135
mrjordan
Posts: 2,102

Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:53PM, Svetlana wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:20PM, mrjordan wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, Svetlana wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:43AM, mrjordan wrote:

If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?




Sure, I'd have told the story, and he might well have done that.  All we know is that we have no written record of anything he might have said about it.  You JWs have this very odd notion that the Bible is complete to the last detail.  I don't know on what you base that assumption, but it is clearly not true. 




So do you think the bible is incomplete?


Of course it's incomplete.  There isn't a giraffe or penguin in it from cover to cover, and we know almost nothing in detail of first 30 years of Jesus' life.



MrJ: To say that the bible is incomplete is like saying Romans 15:4 is lying and Jehovah left us unprepared for the days we are in with no hope.


Romans 15:4
"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."




Also would you be upset if Jesus had brought you back from Heaven back to Earth into a body that was going to die...again?



Not if death is as wonderful as Steve Jobs and all the others seem to have found it!  Why should it upset me?  How is it any different from not having died at all the first time (unless of course I died peacefully the first time and painfully the second.  In that case, I wouldn't be upset until I died the second time, but not at the time I was resurrected)?  I don't think I understand the question.




MrJ: If heaven is better than Earth, why did Jesus bring Lazarus back to life in the first place if Lazarus was supposed to go to heaven? If he did not go to heaven, where was he?





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 8:04PM #136
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

Apr 26, 2012 -- 1:47PM, mrjordan wrote:


MrJ: To say that the bible is incomplete is like saying Romans 15:4 is lying and Jehovah left us unprepared for the days we are in with no hope.


Romans 15:4
"For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope."



I disagree that the lack of detail in the Bible makes that passage untrue.  We are told to treat others as we would wish to be treated, and to love God with all our heart, mind, body, and strength.  What else do we need to know?  In that respect, it IS complete.  I only mean that it is greatly lacking in many details, that's all.  We have no idea, and no way of knowing, whether Lazarus said anything about his adventures, or, if he did, what he said.  The mere absence of his words in scripture in no way means that he didn't say anything, only that he isn't quoted in scripture.  A lot of people said a lot of things that haven't been quoted there.  They were NOT all mutes, so the Bible MUST be incomplete.




MrJ: If heaven is better than Earth, why did Jesus bring Lazarus back to life in the first place if Lazarus was supposed to go to heaven? If he did not go to heaven, where was he?



I have no idea what Lazarus' resurrection was all about, or where he was while dead (and, quite frankly, don't really care).  I was only commenting on the obvious joy and delight with which many of the dying face their very last moments in life, that's all.  We can safely assume we'll all enjoy THAT MOMENT, regardless of what comes next, if anything does at all.  I really have no particular picture of the afterlife, I'll find out for myself soon enough.  You JWs, like many rigid religions, have the afterlife all inventoried and scheduled as though that commits God to something.  You have no more idea of what to expect than does any other religion, or any other person.  ALL of you claim you base it on scripture, and ALL of you differ significantly, which tells everyone else how reliable your interpretatin of scripture is about it.  Only the dead know, and even though many of them ARE talking, no one is taking them seriously.  


I'll try to tell you all about it after I die, if I can, but I can't make promises.  We'll ALL find out soon enough, so why worry about it?  Love God, love your neighbor, and you will have nothing at all to worry about.  It really and truly is that simple, God Himself says so all over the New Testament.



(Just a note:  If Lazarus went to heaven, and it was beyond description in beauty and pleasure, and that's what you are referring to when you ask whether I'd be upset in his place, remember that he knew perfectly well that any absence from that perfection was only temporary, and completely insignificant compared to the eternity he'd be spending there.  There really was no reason for him to be upset about living with loved ones on earth for a very short time before all that eternal pleasure.)




"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 10:14PM #137
Upperlimits
Posts: 3,016

Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:43AM, mrjordan wrote:


If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?







Question: Is it possible Lazarus had a "gag order" given to him before he came back?


I submit to you that his silence was likely for the same reason that Paul the Apostle never spoke of what he saw in heaven either. (2nd Corinthians 12:1-9) Note verse 4. It is not lawful for men going to heaven to speak of things they have seen upon their return.


John the Apostle was also in heaven, but John was exempted from the restriction (Revelation 1:19) when writing the book of Revelation, specifically because this was a message from Christ to the Church. However, even John was restricted in what he could write (Revelation 10:4).

According to 2nd Corinthians 3:2, there are five gospels in the world. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Epistle of ones own life.  Most people will probably never read the first four.

God desires that our lives would bear spiritual fruit - not religious nuts.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:04PM #138
Oeste
Posts: 3,341

Apr 26, 2012 -- 10:14PM, Upperlimits wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:43AM, mrjordan wrote:


If you were Lazarus and you saw heaven or hell wouldn't you tell about the glories of heaven or the horrors of hell? If Lazarus went to Heaven while is was dead, don't you think that would be a great story from Lazarus to be told in the bible? Also, if Lazarus went to heaven don't you think Lazarus would be angry at Jesus for taking him out of Heaven? How about the other 8 cases in the bible where a person was resurrected?





Question: Is it possible Lazarus had a "gag order" given to him before he came back?


I submit to you that his silence was likely for the same reason that Paul the Apostle never spoke of what he saw in heaven either. (2nd Corinthians 12:1-9) Note verse 4. It is not lawful for men going to heaven to speak of things they have seen upon their return.


John the Apostle was also in heaven, but John was exempted from the restriction (Revelation 1:19) when writing the book of Revelation, specifically because this was a message from Christ to the Church. However, even John was restricted in what he could write (Revelation 10:4).




Excellent point UL. Let's look at  some of these verses:


I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. (2nd Cor 12)


Not only was he not permitted to tell, but this verse also shows he wasn't sure if he was there bodily or spiritually.


If Paul had believed "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven" as referring to the "physical body" as Watchtower claims, and not "fallen man" as Christianity believes, then Paul would have been absolutely sure he entered heaven spiritually.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:12PM #139
Theo
Posts: 4,687

Also, something JWs always confuse (I think on purpose) is that according to the Christian paradigm... Lazarus died before Christ redeemed mankind by His blood - and therefore - before the resurection of Christ. And that would mean that Lazarus died and descended to Hades (albeit the rightous side) and thus he was not in heaven. If you want a story from someone who died and was resurrected, who might be able to tell about the glories of heaven - that would be Dorcas. 


Acts 9:36-43 > At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. 37 But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. 38 And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them. 39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, arise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive. 42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:38AM #140
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

I've started a study on death, dead, die & resurrection using multiple bibles & my concordance.  I find that there is physical death & Spiritual death.  Jesus had to become physically dead & yet we know Peter clearly tells us that in this state He was resurrected as a Spirit & went to minister to the spirits in prison from the days of the flood.  can't minister to those that don't exist.


 


However we also know it clearly states in scripture that the dead are aware of nothing.  Maybe that is absolutely true but can they be resurrected like Jesus as spirits?  Where some already so & held in prison when Jesus Himself was then resurrected as a Spirit & went to them to minister?


 


Can they be resurrected as spirits & be sent to different places?  Can some go to Heaven in this very conscious but different state of being?  the bible seems to state this is so.  How was Jesus talking with Moses & Elijah on the mount where Peter could see them if they were dead (Not contious)? 


 


We know Jesus is clearly stated as the first to be resurrected but what exactly is this reffering to?  Seems to me He was the first resurrected back to Heaven not earth, especially if He actually brought Lazarus back from the dead as the story goes.


 


If Jesus was the first to go to heaven then where would Moses or Elijah have been while they waited to go after Him, certainly not in prison like some other spirits?  Realy raises allot of interesting questions & ought to be a very interesting study.


 


I particularly like the story about King davids son seeking to comunicate with Samual from the grave through a seer.  If He wasn't real, how did he know from the grave to give exact detail of how & when Davids son would die? 


Evil spirits predict the future but only God knows it, there is a clear difference.  Balam was known as a man who walked with God & when he would pronounce something it would come true, that was how they knew he walked with God.  That is also how we know evil doesn't walk with God & can't fortell the future only predict it & then try to manipulate it but God knows & states the future and that is why His prophecies come true and it is why there are false prophets and we are told we can identify them because they can't tell the future, their prophecy doesn't come true.


 


Just some thoughts, God Bless! 


 


 

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