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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 6:44AM #41
Kwinters
Posts: 21,944

The reason you can't easily or clearly show that the earliest followers of Jesus believed him to be a god is very simple.


They did not.  And overwhelming evidence leads us to this conclusion.


Did people later on endow Jesus with divine properties? Yes.  Undoubtably.  But it was not Jesus who communicated that idea, nor his apostles, nor Paul.  The divinity of the Christ was a later theological invention, decades after his death.


You can't retrofit a motor on a bike without it looking completely out of place, and you can't retrofit a divine Christ into that passage in Acts, into the Synoptic gospels or the authentic writings of Paul without the same effect.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:38AM #42
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 12, 2012 -- 6:38AM, Kwinters wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 6:09AM, davelaw40 wrote:


strawman




I really expect more intellectual content from you than just random words that don't apply, dave.


What's gotten into you?




this-  I asked for evidence that every author used the term kyrios to mean Adonai.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 4:43PM #43
Burnman
Posts: 3,303

Apr 11, 2012 -- 12:39PM, Ed.W wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:

The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:



I must say that I think this is a fascinating post.





What do you find "fascinating" about it?





Many false things are facinating.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 4:47PM #44
Burnman
Posts: 3,303

Apr 11, 2012 -- 5:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 2:42PM, Kwinters wrote:

You didn't guess right.


The passage is cited as an example of pre-Pauline tradition.


Of course I guessed right, and with your comment you cornered yourself even more.


"Markan priority", "Q source", now "pre-Pauline tradition" embedded in Acts: you tend to mistake mere hypoteses for indisputable facts ...


MdS





Mario,


How in the world can Luke's "Acts" be a "pre-Pauline tradition"? Where did she pull that one from?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 5:05PM #45
Burnman
Posts: 3,303

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:

The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:

From Acts

'...Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...'




Someone seems to have forgotten (perhaps conveniently?) that the earliest writtings may have been written by St. Paul. So, wouldn't those letters be the earliest recorded theology in Christianity?


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 5:18PM #46
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Bernie


Apr 12, 2012 -- 4:47PM, Burnman wrote:

How in the world can Luke's "Acts" be a "pre-Pauline tradition"? Where did she pull that one from?


My guess ... er ... "reasoned inference" is that she pulled that one from her top guru Bart D. Ehrman. Cool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 6:11PM #47
dio
Posts: 4,932

Apr 12, 2012 -- 5:05PM, Burnman wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:

The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:

From Acts

'...Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...'




Someone seems to have forgotten (perhaps conveniently?) that the earliest writtings may have been written by St. Paul. So, wouldn't those letters be the earliest recorded theology in Christianity?


 


 




the earliest we have. Certainly there were other early theologies.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 12:43AM #48
Burnman
Posts: 3,303

Apr 12, 2012 -- 6:11PM, dio wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 5:05PM, Burnman wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:

The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:

From Acts

'...Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...'




Someone seems to have forgotten (perhaps conveniently?) that the earliest writtings may have been written by St. Paul. So, wouldn't those letters be the earliest recorded theology in Christianity?


 


 




the earliest we have. Certainly there were other early theologies.





Such as...?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 9:29AM #49
Eliascomes
Posts: 976

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.


Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,


 2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.



There was two lights that was created in the Genesis story. I know that God doesn't have Alzheimer and forgotten that He had created the light on the first day. We have two kinds of lights here on earth; one is the physical light and the other is the spiritual light. But it's hard for us to comprehend the spiritual light is because we like to absorb information with our five senses and leave out the six sense.


youtu.be/lnk8SKD9zcA

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