Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 10:12AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617
The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:

From Acts

'...Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...'

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 10:45AM #2
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

When did Jesus become Christ?


'...If we turn to the New Testament records looking for the historical evidence of the objective process by which Jesus became the Christ, then what we find are subjective judgments or proclamations which simply sound as if they are objective.


The conclusion that they are subjective is confirmed by the fact that there are several of them at different points in the New Testament and they are different from each other. Here are the most important ones:



After his death

In Acts in a speech put into the mouth of Peter we find these words (2:22–36):


"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst . . . you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless man . . . This Jesus God raised up, and of that we are all witnesses . . . Let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."


The person who composed those words was declaring that it was by means of God's raising Jesus from the dead that Jesus became the Christ. In other words, on this view, the man Jesus became the Christ at some point after his death on the cross.


We should note in this and the following examples that we are not dealing with historical events open to public investigation by the historian. The events are specifically described as "acts of God." "This Jesus God raised up . . . God has made him both Lord and Christ." Anything judged by humans to be "an act of God" belongs to the category of a human judgment or interpretation and not to the category of historical event.


During his ministry


In Mark's Gospel, however, there is a story of Jesus at Caesarea Philippi in which he asked his disciples what people were saying about him and they gave a variety of answers. When Jesus asked Peter what he thought he received the reply, "You are the Christ." The writer of this narrative clearly believed that Jesus was already the Christ during his ministry and before his death and resurrection. The narrator further says that Jesus charged his disciples not to mention to anyone that he was the Christ. These references to secrecy in Mark's Gospel are known in modern scholarship as the Messianic Secret, after the title of a book written in 1901 by Wilhelm Wrede. He argued that the secret was a primitive invention to reconcile two accounts of how Jesus became the Messiah—the earlier account, that we have just seen reflected in Acts, and a slightly later account, that Jesus was already the Christ during his ministry.


At his baptism

The author of Mark's Gospel, writing at a time when all Christians accepted Jesus as Messiah, went even further, implying that it was at his baptism that Jesus became the Messiah. We read that when Jesus came out of the water he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and a voice came from heaven saying, "You are my beloved son; with you I am well pleased."


This story gave rise in early Christian theology to what was called the "adoption theory" of the "Person of Christ." In short, Jesus was born as an ordinary human being until God, at the time of his baptism by John, adopted him as his Son. This is why there are no birth stories in Mark. This view was eventually declared heretical though it continued to break out from time to time. It became heretical for the simple reason that the belief that Jesus became the Christ only at his baptism, still common when Mark was writing about 70 c.e., was soon to be overcome by further changes in the developing tradition.


When he was born

The birth stories of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke clearly intend to imply that Jesus was the Christ from the time he was he born. Whereas Matthew tends to emphasize that Jesus was born to be the King of Jews, Luke is more explicit, putting this into the mouth of the angels, "for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour who is Christ the Lord."


A further difference between the birth stories of Luke and Matthew is that Matthew traced the genealogy of Jesus back to Abraham to indicate, as it were, that he was a faithful Jew and a true son of Abraham. But Luke, perhaps because he was a Gentile, traced the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam, both to show that he was truly representative of human kind but also to say that, being human, he was also the son of God, for Adam he referred to as the Son of God.


In tracing this progression backwards in time, from post-resurrection, to ministry, to baptism, to birth, we should note there is also a shift in emphasis in the terminology being used concerning Jesus. It is a shift from Messiahship to divinity, from the status of Christ to the status of the divine Son of God.


At creation

This progression backwards did not stop with the birth of Jesus. When we turn to the Fourth Gospel we find that the process we are discussing goes so far back in time that it is no longer a case of Jesus becoming the Christ. It has now become a case of the Christ becoming Jesus, the Christ being now referred to as the Logos or Word. The reason the Fourth Gospel has no birth story is that it starts the Gospel of Jesus Christ from creation. The one who was to become Jesus was there from the beginning. (It's a bit like saying that Jenny Shipley was divinely ordained to be Prime Minister from the beginning of time.)


In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God . . . all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made . . . and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; and we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father . . . grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known . . .      John 1:1 –18


Here, the issue of how Jesus became the Christ has been reversed into a different issue—how the Logos, or only begotten Son of God, became incarnate in human flesh as Jesus. Thus the question of how Jesus became God became turned round in the course of time into the question of how God became Jesus.


By the time of the Ecumenical Councils and the formulation of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity the basic Christian Gospel had gone through a remarkable change. It had started with the simple affirmation that Jesus was the Christ. It was now the affirmation of how the second person of the Holy Trinity had become incarnate in the man Jesus. In effect, therefore, Jesus was now believed to be incorporated into the Godhead.


How are these differences in subjective evaluation to be reconciled? If we read the Bible expecting it to be perfectly consistent, being all written on one level and by the same author (and that is how it used to be read by Christians until two hundred years ago), then the various "acts of God" we have just retraced—creation, incarnation, birth, baptism, ministry, resurrection—could all be taken as successive steps in the one process by which Jesus became the Christ, the Christ who now sits at the right hand of God, from which he will ultimately return to be our Judge.


From about two hundred years ago, and especially during the last 160 years, Christian scholars have begun to read the Bible historically. They found it is not written on one level nor by one author. It was composed by different people at different times and it reflects many differences of viewpoint. That is why it can now be seen to contain many inconsistencies and vast differences of viewpoint. In particular the traditional answer of how Jesus became the Christ has been replaced by a surprising variety of conflicting answers. What is even more revealing is that when we look at these answers in chronological order of composition, we find a quite fascinating process taking place. Within the space of about seventy years the chief "act of God" by which Jesus supposedly became the Christ has moved from after his death, back through his ministry, baptism, birth, to beyond the creation itself, as the final creedal term "begotten, not made" makes clear.


The reason for the apparently conflicting answers is that they were not historical events, open to public investigation, but value judgments, being made by different people at different times in a fast developing tradition. Although they were being proclaimed in the same kind of language we commonly use to announce an objective historical event, they were actually subjective judgments or evaluations on the part of those who gave them. In other words what Christian tradition has long treated as an objective account of how Jesus became the Christ turns out to be a succession of subjective judgments. The traditional, and supposedly objective, account of how Jesus became the Christ is the account of how Jesus, step by step, came subjectively to be evaluated in the minds of successive generations of those who worshiped him and thus conceived as the Christ.'

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 11:03AM #3
dio
Posts: 5,934

I think Jesus became Christ after his death and resurrection when on the road to Emmaus resurrected Jesus unrecognized began explaining where the prophets predicted the Messiah had to suffer to the two diciples. This is when the Christian interpretation of these prophets began, until then the Christian interpretation was unimaginable.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:02PM #4
Blü
Posts: 26,191


To be the Messiah, the Khristos, is to be the Anointed One.


Mark 14
3 And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head.
4 But there were some who said to themselves indignantly, "Why was the ointment thus wasted?  5 For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and given to the poor." And they reproached her.
6 But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.  7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.  8 She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burying.  9 And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her."

Matthew 26
6  Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head, as he sat at table.
8 But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste?  9 For this ointment might have been sold for a large sum, and given to the poor."
10 But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.  12 In pouring this ointment on my body she has done it to prepare me for burial.  13 Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her."

Luke 7
37 And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment,  38 and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner."
40 And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?"
41 "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.  42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly."
44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.  45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.  46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.  47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."  48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


John 12
1  Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz'arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.  2 There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Laz'arus was one of those at table with him.
3 Mary took a pound of costly ointment of pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the ointment.  4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 "Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.
7 Jesus said, "Let her alone, let her keep it for the day of my burial. 8 The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."


So if it happened during his life, this would seem to be when it happened.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 5:14PM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

Blu,


Nicely done. Is that your own research? If so I think there is a good paper in that.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 10:11PM #6
Blü
Posts: 26,191

KW


I've never thought about it before - it just seemed obvious when this particular question arose so I checked the texts.


I'd be wholly unsurprised to find I'd been scooped.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 12:10AM #7
Eliascomes
Posts: 1,500

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:

The earliest expressions of the Jesus movement theology is pretty clear in expressing the idea that Jesus was not a god:

From Acts

'...Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

...Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

...The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...'


 There was two item that was present when the covenant was made with Abraham. 


Genesis 15


 17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 12:59AM #8
Stephenway
Posts: 226

Of course any number of people have tried to reinterpret the meanings of many passages, but as to when The Anointed One- the Messiah- the Christ was anointed to me seems to be from the foundation of the world.


Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.  7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows. (NASB)


Decide for yourself who you believe God’s Anointed One here is- I relate this to Jesus.


Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; (NASB)


Jesus Himself used this reference to refer to Himself, and this reference was made several hundred years before Herod looked to slay the babes in Bethlehem.


Daniel 9:25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.  26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. (NASB)


I will consider the Messiah (Anointed) here to refer to Jesus.


Matthew 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.  21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."  22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." (NASB)


Basically, anointed from the Hebrew perspective (as I understand it- I’m no expert on Hebrew perspective) means more than just having oil put on the head, but indicates the setting apart for a purpose.  The purpose seems to be indicated here before His birth.


Luke 1:31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.  32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." (NASB)


It is commonly accepted that Kings were anointed, and this would indicate Jesus’ anointing before His birth.


Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!  43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?  44 "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.  45 "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord." (NASB)


Now before John was born, he seems to recognize the presence of his coming Lord as indicated by the words of Elizabeth.  However, one may argue Luke’s source for this information, but I choose to trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit in guiding Luke’s investigation and his sources.


Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB)


This is my main premise for believing that He was anointed before the foundation of the world.


Sorry- I remembered the discussion about anointing and Christ, but just came back to the original mention as to His being God.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2 He was in the beginning with God.  3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (NASB)


It appears John recognized Him as God and as a Force in the creation.


John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.  12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (NASB)


It here appears that the Word that was with God and was God became flesh and brought the Light of God’s salvation to those who believe.  It seems that John must be referring to Jesus, and certainly designated Him to be God.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 3:39AM #9
Blü
Posts: 26,191

Stephenway

Jesus is never mentioned in the OT.  Nor is Napoleon or Hoagie Carmichael.  From where the OT  writers sit, these people, and the concept of them, are in the future, wholly inaccessible, wholly unknowable, to them.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 4:00AM #10
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

Apr 11, 2012 -- 3:39AM, Blü wrote:


Stephenway

Jesus is never mentioned in the OT.  Nor is Napoleon or Hoagie Carmichael.  From where the OT  writers sit, these people, and the concept of them, are in the future, wholly inaccessible, wholly unknowable, to them.




One can read things into a text that are not there simply because they want to find it or because they have been told it is there.


The evidence in the texts show a progression of theology, from Jesus as messiah after his death, to Jesus as messiah during his ministry, to Jesus as messiah during his baptism, to Jesus as messiah at his birth with the latest (coming even after Paul's writings) some 60 years later that Jesus was always a god.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook