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Switch to Forum Live View From Hebrew to Israelite to Jew
3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:41AM #1
Dudette
Posts: 137
Hello again everyone!

I would like to know how the people went from Hebrews (I guess before entering the Promised Land) to Israelites (at first, Israelites were the Hebrews ennemies) to Jews. 
I guess you can be more than one at a time.

Thank you!
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 11:23AM #2
Pam34
Posts: 2,678

Where do you get 'Israelites' as enemies of Hebrews? That is not accurate.



'Hebrews' (Ivri) seems to mean something like wanderers, or nomads, or someone from across the river (Jordan). Abraham is 'Ivri': he and his people had no settlements.



Abraham's grandson is Jacob, who becomes called 'Israel' - and his sons and descendents are also 'Israel' - to this day. Our name for ourselves is 'Israel'.



The Biblical 'Israelites' are the people who are descended from Jacob (Israel) along with the 'mixed multitude' that joined those people leaving Egypt, and who stood together at Sinai and joined the people, becoming a 'Nation'. The Nation was divided into twelve identified tribes, each claiming descent from a different son of Jacob (a very prolific guy).



Israel the LAND is the land of Israel the People. The Land was (according to the Bible) promised to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob and his descendents. It wasn't widely CALLED 'Israel' until later, however - in earlier times it was inhabited by a number of tribes and peoples, including Canaanites and Philistines.



After unification by David, the Land became a Kingdom, which was divided after the death of Solomon, into two separate kingdoms - the northern kingdom was called 'Israel' and the southern one was called 'Judah' (because it was ruled by a member of that tribe, and the area included the territory of the tribe of Judah, plus a few of the smaller tribes also in the south, like Benjamin).



The northern kingdom was conquered and essentially vanished, around 700 BCE, by the Assyrians. (We are pretty sure that numerous refugees from the conquest fled south to their 'cousins' of Judah, and - being now citizens/subjects of Judah, accepted being called 'Judahites' also - while still maintaining their former tribal identifications). The southern kingdom of Judah survived another 150 years or so, until it too was conquered by the Babylonians. But the subjects of Judah maintained their identity until they returned to Judah about a century later, when Babylonia had been overcome by the Persians.


When Alexander the Great conquered the known world, he acquired 'Judah', which at that time was a province of the Persian empire. As Greek became the common language of the entire Mediterranean/Persian area, Judah morphed into 'Judea', and the inhabitants became known as 'Judeans' and later, THAT morphed into 'Jews'. That's the English form - in a lot of European languages, you can still see the relationship much more easily - take German, for instance -


Hebrew: Yehudah (Judah) - > Greek: Iudea - >German: Jude (pronounced Yudeh) (J = Y) -> English: Jew


(excuse lousy Greek, I'm half sure I didn't spell that right)


But we are still 'Israel'.



Quickie short history course.

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 1:30PM #3
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

BS"D


What Pam states is the history as I understand it.  The "habiru" were semitic nomads that became perennial annoyances to the Egyptians and their vassal States.  Israelites descended from the larger category known as "habiru."  Jews are the only ones who claim historical ties to the "habiru" by the preservation of the word "Hebrew" and its completely different meaning in the Hebrew language.  "Habiru" means "aliens" or "invaders."  "Hebrew" means those who "crossed over" meaning from where they were at the time to the Land of Israel.  Hebrews are the "habiru" that became Israelites; the Jewish people.  In addition, the historical links to the word "Hebrew" is made long before Egyptian history in the Jewish holy text, citing not the seminal migration from Egypt but the original migration of Abram from Ur of the Chaldees as initiated NOT by Abram but by his father Terah the idol-maker.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:18AM #4
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi Pam!


Thank you for taking the time...I love short histoty course!


You ask:


Where do you get 'Israelites' as enemies of Hebrews?


Well, I suspect that the people living in Israel before Hebrews entering the Promised Land considered them their ennemies?  Weren't they called Israelites?


I do have to admit that I've always been a little uncomfortable using the word Jew.  You guys have no problem with it?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:29AM #5
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hello again Bunsinspace!


Thank you for the information...this is fascinating!


So, if I understand this correctly (I sure hope so...), people like Joseph and his family paired with the "habiru" people became the Jewish people?  And Moses got the "habiru" out of Egypt to bring them to the Promised Land, not just the descendants of Jacob?  That would explain the numbers... Embarassed


You write:


the original migration of Abram from Ur of the Chaldees as initiated NOT by Abram but by his father Terah the idol-maker.


I thought that Abram left his family.  Can you tell me where I can read about this in the Scriptures?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:31AM #6
ffb
Posts: 2,246

Apr 9, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Dudette wrote:

Hi Pam!


Thank you for taking the time...I love short histoty course!


You ask:


Where do you get 'Israelites' as enemies of Hebrews?


Well, I suspect that the people living in Israel before Hebrews entering the Promised Land considered them their ennemies?  Weren't they called Israelites?


I do have to admit that I've always been a little uncomfortable using the word Jew.  You guys have no problem with it?


the land became called the "land of israel" because the children of israel were given it. Yes, they were the nominal enemies fo the 6-7 peoples who lived there before, but those tribal groups (chiti, chivi, emori, yevusi, prizi, kena'ani and earlier on, girgashi) were not "israelites". the land was called the land of kena'an (canaan) before hand.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:11PM #7
Pam34
Posts: 2,678

Apr 9, 2012 -- 10:18AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi Pam!


Thank you for taking the time...I love short histoty course!


You ask:


Where do you get 'Israelites' as enemies of Hebrews?


Well, I suspect that the people living in Israel before Hebrews entering the Promised Land considered them their ennemies?  Weren't they called Israelites?


I do have to admit that I've always been a little uncomfortable using the word Jew.  You guys have no problem with it?





Jew is fine.



And the land of Israel wasn't CALLED 'Israel' until AFTER the Children of Israel started living there and calling it that -



So 'the people living 'in Israel' before the Hebrews/Children of Israel entered 'the Promised Land' certainly did not call it 'Israel'. It was called 'Canaan' (or at least, part of it was).

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 2:31AM #8
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Another version (and this one is just as true as the Biblical account):



Originally, the land called Canaan was a province of the Egyptian empire. It was divided between settled city-states in the lowlands that were vassals of the Egyptian pharaoh and semi-nomadic tribes of shepherds in the highlands that were more-or-less independent.


There was conflict between the settled agriculturalists of the city-states and the nomadic shepherds, and there was conflict within the city-states between the upper classes that were aligned with the Egyptian overlords and the lower classes, the peasants and unemployed and working poor, the underclass and outcasts that the Egyptians called apiru.


Around about the mid-13th century BCE, the Egyptian government collapsed and lost control over some of its provinces. At the same time, Egyptian imperial weakness enabled the apiru in the Canaanite city-states to rebel against their rulers, the Egyptian vassals. They joined forces with the semi-nomadic highland shepherds and with a third group, one that came out of Egypt itself.


The highlanders and the apiru, both being Canaanite in origin, worshiped a pantheon of gods, the most important and powerful one was named El. El was the king and father of the gods, the lawgiver and judge. The group coming up from the south, from Egypt, worshipped the warrior god Yahweh.


The chief people associated with the worship of Yahweh all had Egyptian names:


Moses = mss = Egyptian for "child of" or "born of" a god (cf Rameses, "child of Ra," Thutmose, "child of Thoth")


Aaron = a'o ron = Egyptian for "great is the name" (the first element is the same as the second element in "Pharaoh" = pr a'o, "great house")


Miryam = mry- = Egyptian for "beloved one"


Pinechas = pnhs = Egyptian for "Nubian"


All the other major figures in the Exodus narrative have Semitic Canaanite names.


Either during the revolution or after, the group from Egypt that worshipped Yahweh decided that their god was the same god as the Canaanites who worshipped El. "El" means simply "god" or "mighty one."


When the Egyptian vassals had been overthrown, the Egyptian immigrants, the highland shepherds, and the apiru from the cities organized themselves into a new confederation of tribes that called themselves Israel and began to weave together a common mythic history to unite themselves into a single people.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 7:19AM #9
river8101
Posts: 5,564

Finally, someone who knows the real history.  Thanks, Nieciedo.


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:56AM #10
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi ffb and Pam!


Thank you for the information, I wasn't aware of this.  It makes a lot more sense!

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