May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

Armageddon is a belabored and misunderstood subject that generates different and varied viewpoints as to its composition and those involved. Some scholars agree that Armageddon is the culmination of the struggle between Christ and Satan for the hearts and minds of mankind. In this day and age of modern weaponry, fighting a war in a small area, as the plains of Megiddo, and having a worldwide application, is not logical. The period of time that ushers in Armageddon follows the imposition of the seven last plagues given in Revelation 16. In Rev. 16:15 it says, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." This verse parallels Matt. 24:36 in that it reiterates Christ return 'at a time not expected by anyone'. Then in Rev. 16:16, the term Armageddon is introduced and seemingly occurs just as the seventh angel pours out the final and last plague, which brought a response from heaven, "It is done", meaning that all has been accomplished and Christ's return follows.

Actually, you already posted this before.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

The sequence of the seven last plagues in Revelation 16 are:

1) " ...a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Verse 2)

2) "......the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." (Verse 3)

3) "......the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." (Verse 4)

(Note) Notice that verses 5-7 provides the response of the angels to this plague as being justified by virtue of the shedding of blood of saints and prophets, a reference to the men with the mark of the beast and those which worshipped his image.

4) "......poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire." (Verse 8)

(Note) Notice that in verse 9 that it tells us that God has power over the plagues, and in spite of the plagues, man will not repent and give Him glory.

Um, wait a minute. I haven't even read 5-7 yet.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

5) ".....the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain," (Verse 10)

(Note) In verse 11 it tells us that those 'in the seat of the beast' blaspheme God and still refuse to repent their deeds.

Still haven't read 6-7 yet...let alone verse 9.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

6) "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared." (Verse 12)

(Note) Verses 13 and 14 defines. . .

Sorry, Discerner, but the way that you are inserting your 'Notes' before I've gotten a chance to read your previous note, is a bit annoying. Therefore, I'm going to skip down to the bottom of your post to see if you gave a summary.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

and describes the three frogs (unclean spirits), where they come from, and what they will do. Verse 15 provides a warning that Christ will come as a thief (meaning at an unknown time and unexpectedly) and warns all prepare and be ready at all times (a metaphoric reference to keeping your garments about you). It carries an urgency that the time to be ready for His coming is NOW, for we do not know when He will come, for when He does come, it is too late. Verse 16 refers to the gathering of those who are against Him. As such, they have persecuted and killed the saints throughout the ages who refused to deny Christ or their belief in His promise of salvation and eternal life, and will do so right up until the time Christ returns. Even in this day and age Christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith, and as the Holy Spirit withdraws from mankind, it will become worse. It is at this time that the seventh plague will occur, which is the coming of Jesus Christ, for verse 17 says that the 'great voice out of the temple of heaven' says that 'it is done'. This acclamation parallels the words of Christ when He said "It is finished" on the cross when He died, for Christ had finished the work He was given by His Father. When He says 'it is done', He has finished His role in heaven as our High Priest and prepares for His return to this earth to gather His own.

7) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done". (Verse 17)

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

(Note) The remainder of the verses in Revelation 16 provide a vivid description of what will transpire on this earth as Jesus returns. As God protected His people Israel from the terrible plagues in Egypt, so will He protect His people from the plagues of the last days...those people who will not have the 'mark of the beast' or 'worshipped his image'. From Revelation 16 one should heed the warnings in this chapter and study to identify 'the beast', what the 'mark of the beast' means, and what is 'the image' that worships the beast. For one's salvation rests on this knowledge.

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following all of this.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:45PM, Discerner wrote:

The death of numerous unbelievers during this period of time most likely will occur, and certainly those unbelievers alive at the time of Christ's return will be struck down by 'the brightness of His coming' as given in 2 Thess. 2:8, which says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Discerner, I would like to read the whole context of that verse from the KJV.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

Now for those who are annoyed by 17th century English, here is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 from the NKJV:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, ² not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. ³ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

⁵ Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ¹¹ And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, ¹² that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now, Discerner, after reading the context of verse 8, I really don't see how you don't see that "that man of sin" or "the man of sin" in verse 3...is referring to "that Wicked" or "the lawless one" in verse 8. I mean, it's just straight forward reading.

Also, in reference to the question that I previously asked you about concerning your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:8, I did see in post #393 where you said:

Apr 29, 2012 -- 12:32AM, Discerner wrote:

  It refers to those who are lawless, those who have transgressed the law. Read the definition of the Greek word "anomos", for it does not refer to Satan, but rather to those who refuse Christ's way and continue in their wicked ways.

Okay, I looked up 2 Thessalonians 2:8 in an interlinear, and all that it said was that the Greek word for "lawless" or "Wicked"(anomos) meant: "departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked."(shrugging shoulders while raising my palms skywards) Therefore, I don't understand your point because no one ever said that 2 Thessalonians 2:8 was referring to Satan. And even if it was, why wouldn't "anomos" apply to Satan?

Therefore, Discerner, why should I believe your interpretation of Revelation or any scripture as far as that matters...when you can't even put together simple thoughts, interpret and apply simple Greek word translations, and use simple logic?

May 13, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Discerner wrote:

May 13, 2012 -- 7:34PM, cherubino wrote:

Of course, one scripture can only trump another if the first scripture is falsifiable, a subtle but crushing contradiction that the proof-text poker players blithely ignore, but which is an endless source of amusement for the rest of us.

In your dissertation above you seem to be applying a scientific factoring analogy to discredit or disprove divine prophetic events that have occurred in the past, and will occur in the future. Mankind continues to learn...sometimes coming to a conclusion that later is proven to be based on a false premise. Yet the study of prophecy as given in the Bible has proven to be amazingly accurate when compared to historical documentation of comparable and parallel events throughout the ages.

The study of eschatological events is based on prophetic imagery and metaphoric analogies, and though some were written hundreds of years apart, complement each other exactly as the events occurred and that were recorded by secular history writers.

You are correct in your assertion that there is no seven-headed beast that exists in the zoological world. But the symbolism in the explanation of this beast is pertinent to the eschatological events contained in the study of this beast and its activities. Only when this symbolism is understood does it provide an accurate account of the commonalities of prophetic events  when comparing the parallelisms of prophecy contained in both the Old and New Testaments.

However, unless one possesses an unalterable faith in the inspired Word of God, the study of the Bible is difficult to understand with any degree of rationality, especially the study of prophecy as portrayed in symbols, metaphors and analogies.

 

Hey Discerner

This is a great post and very true, the fact is the people that mock the Bible cannot produce one bit of evidence to disprove the Bible in any way, on the other hand the Bible stands the test Historically, scientifically and more important prophetically. Now the Bible cannot produce evidence for every historical and scientific matter in its pages, that would be unfair to expect that, but prophesy in the Bible can be empirically proven, every prophetic event has come true that is in the Bible, and as i keep saying we in our life time have seen prophecy come true, and people just conveniently ignore these facts.

God Bless You

Denis.

May 12, 2012 -- 10:51PM, Discerner wrote:

Discerner wrote: In summation, babies and others will not be destroyed as a direct result of Armageddon, but rather as a result of the seven last plagues and Christ's return. The righteous will not be affected by the last plagues, just as the Israelites were not affected by the ten plagues that were brought onto Egypt, for they had Divine protection.

And from another thread:

May 14, 2012 -- 9:11PM, Newtonian wrote:

A cross reference:

(2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8) . . .to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels ⁸ in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.

One can just imagine what fiery forms of energy are at the disposal of powerful angels, including cherubs!

community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...(post #103)

Well, whether the destruction of innocent children is a direct result of Armageddon or a result of the seven last plagues and Christ's return, I recently came across a scripture which made me wonder about some of the callous and brutal violence that is in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. And that scripture is Psalm 137:9.

And the 'Barnes' Notes on the Bible' commentary from the bible.cc site says(emphasis mine):

Happy shall he be that taketh ... - Margin, as in Hebrew, rock. This refers to what was not uncommon in ancient warfare, as it is now among savage tribes - the indiscriminate slaughter of those of all ages, and of both sexes, in war. It was expressly foretold of Babylon that this would occur (see Isaiah 13:16, and the notes at that place), and there may be a reference here to that prediction, and the psalmist may mean to say that the man would be accounted happy, or would be happy, who wreaked vengeance on Babylon in carrying out that prophecy. The idea is, "This will certainly occur, for it is foretold, and happy or fortunate will he be who is the instrument in fulfilling it." Compare 2 Kings 8:12; Nahum 3:10; Hosea 13:16. See also Homer, II xxii. 63,373, following It is impossible to reconcile such barbarous customs with the idex of "honorable war," or with the principles of war as carried on among "civilized" nations now.

It should be added, however, that there is much - very much - that is practiced in war by "civilized" nations still, which it is equally impossible to reconcile with any just notions of morality or humanity, and which in coming ages, and when people shall come to view things aright, will seem to the people of those times to be not less monstrous, strange, and barbarous. In regard to this passage, we are not necessarily to suppose that the author of the psalm approved of this, or desired it, or prayed for it. He looked forward to the fulfillment of a prediction; he saw that a just and terrible judgment would certainly come upon Babylon; he expressed that in the common language of the times, and states the manner in which it would occur; he described the feelings - the gratification - of those who would execute the divine purpose in the overthrow of Babylon; he referred to the estimate in which the conqueror would be held by people, and the glory of the achievement as giving him fame among people.

It must be admitted that the feelings of the author of the psalm appear to accord with this; that he considers it proper that the city should be destroyed; and that he regards its overthrow as a righteous judgment, and as a thing to be desired in the divine administration. It is true that he might approve of such an overthrow, and see it to be right - he might describe the feelings of those by whom it would be done, their joy, their exultation, and even their barbarity, without himself approving of their barbarity, or sympathizing with their feelings, or partaking of their spirit; but still it cannot in fairness be denied that there is an apparent approval of the act here referred to, which savors more of imprecation than forgiveness, and which is apparently prompted more by the spirit of revenge than by a desire of just punishment. On this subject, however, see the General Introduction, Section 6 (4); and the notes at Psalm 109:10. A correct record may be made, whether of facts or of feelings, without any design of expressing either approbation or disapprobation on the part of the historian, the prophet, or the poet.

bible.cc/psalms/137-9.htm