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Switch to Forum Live View What exactly is Armageddon?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 7:47PM #171
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:27AM, mrjordan wrote:


Where I do agree that one should spend time in quiet reflection thinking of the words of the bible I don't agree that you try to understand the bible alone.


Read the post again.  One is not to study the Bible alone, one is to ask the Holy Spirit to help with understanding.  He's certainly going to give you better advice than any human possibly could!


Sometimes I get the impression that people think that when someone becomes a witness that they just toss their bible out the window because now they have the WT pubs. This thinking is so far from the truth.



I don't think that. What I have heard and read from JWs, I get the idea that one is to ignore any promptings of the Holy Spirit, and lean ONLY on WTS publications.  The teaching seems to be (no one says this out loud, but the implication is all over what they DO say) that you can never be sure that the promptings are really from the Holy Spirit, that you may be misled.  I don't know of anyone that has that problem, because the Holy Spirit's promptings are consistent with scripture, they just clear things up, at least for me.  The WTS changes its mi..., er, gets new light all the time, so I figure it's better to get it right the first time from the source (I don't mean that I get it right away all the time, only that when I DO get it, it's right) and not rely on people who can't seem to do so.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 7:53PM #172
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:23PM, Ed_3 wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Carrion birds do eat dead bodies, so it very well may occur, however, we also understand there is imagery in the description.


*** w79 8/1 p. 32 Questions From Readers ***
Thus it shows that the execution, being left unburied and being consumed by the birds represents complete rejection by God

) On this The Tyndale New Testament Commentary states: “The picture of destruction is completed with the statement that the birds were sated with the flesh of the slain, a common piece of imagery for final disaster.”



*** w67 7/1 pp. 407-408 Can Any War Be Wholly Just? ***
The ones slaughtered at Armageddon are shown as being left as food for the carrion-eating birds of the heavens.



That's interesting because most JWs seem to believe that what is said in Revelation 19:17-18 is literal. As a matter of fact, Newtonain has made mention several times on the board about how the birds in Revelation 19 will be eating the dead bodies of those slaughtered during Armageddon.


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


And as far as the disposal, I am surprised you forgot one theory  as to possible disposal.Wink


*** kj chap. 20 p. 377 par. 22 Land of Magog No More to Threaten Mankind ***
Doubtless the Almighty God will use some highly scientific means, whether including antimatter or not, to dispose of the surplus of decaying bodies in a speedy and sanitary way. This remains for the survivors of the “war of the great day” to see and witness. We remember that Noah and his seven fellow survivors of the global Deluge were not burdened with burying the human victims of that world catastrophe after they came out of the ark and renewed Jehovah’s worship on earth.—Genesis 8:18-22.



Sorry, but I didn't come in on "The Nations" book study until they were about half way through the book. Therefore, I probably never read page 20 before.


Although, I think it's odd how so many JWs seem to still believe the thing about 'the birds eating the dead bodies' is literal.


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


The italicized portion is italicized because I think the concerns over what parts of the imagery are literal, are not the best focus, and I have italicized what I consider to be a more productive line of inquiry...how to survive.



Well that's all fine and good, but that is not what this thread is about. ;-)  




Again, since carrion birds do eat dead bodies, this could very well occur.  I doubt they'll gorge on them day after day, as that would get very unhealthy very quickly.


And for me, any 'Armageddon' thread is about 'how to survive.' Wink  It's sort of our job, you see, to both do this, and teach others how to


(Luke 21:36) 36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that YOU may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.”



“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 7:56PM #173
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Regina_Jones wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Svetlana wrote:

Why is Armageddon more important than the good news itself, as you imply by making the teaching of Armageddon MORE important?


Implied that the teaching of armageddon is more important?  Where?



By saying that we will be killed for not stressing it, although we stress the GOOD news of God's infinite love.  If the latter is not enough to save us, then the teaching of Armageddon must be more important.


(Sorry this is late.)




"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:02PM #174
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:56PM, Svetlana wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Regina_Jones wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Svetlana wrote:

Why is Armageddon more important than the good news itself, as you imply by making the teaching of Armageddon MORE important?


Implied that the teaching of armageddon is more important?  Where?



By saying that we will be killed for not stressing it, although we stress the GOOD news of God's infinite love.  If the latter is not enough to save us, then the teaching of Armageddon must be more important.


(Sorry this is late.)







Armageddon IS God's infinite love, and nothing else is possible.


If God is good and God is love, anything he purposes, wills and brings about, is good and an expression of love.  If Jesus is a just and righteous king, anything he is a part of, such as leading the armies in 'God's final war' is also righteous and just, good and love.






“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:18PM #175
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:53PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:23PM, Ed_3 wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Carrion birds do eat dead bodies, so it very well may occur, however, we also understand there is imagery in the description.


*** w79 8/1 p. 32 Questions From Readers ***
Thus it shows that the execution, being left unburied and being consumed by the birds represents complete rejection by God

) On this The Tyndale New Testament Commentary states: “The picture of destruction is completed with the statement that the birds were sated with the flesh of the slain, a common piece of imagery for final disaster.”



*** w67 7/1 pp. 407-408 Can Any War Be Wholly Just? ***
The ones slaughtered at Armageddon are shown as being left as food for the carrion-eating birds of the heavens.



That's interesting because most JWs seem to believe that what is said in Revelation 19:17-18 is literal. As a matter of fact, Newtonain has made mention several times on the board about how the birds in Revelation 19 will be eating the dead bodies of those slaughtered during Armageddon.


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


And as far as the disposal, I am surprised you forgot one theory  as to possible disposal.Wink


*** kj chap. 20 p. 377 par. 22 Land of Magog No More to Threaten Mankind ***
Doubtless the Almighty God will use some highly scientific means, whether including antimatter or not, to dispose of the surplus of decaying bodies in a speedy and sanitary way. This remains for the survivors of the “war of the great day” to see and witness. We remember that Noah and his seven fellow survivors of the global Deluge were not burdened with burying the human victims of that world catastrophe after they came out of the ark and renewed Jehovah’s worship on earth.—Genesis 8:18-22.



Sorry, but I didn't come in on "The Nations" book study until they were about half way through the book. Therefore, I probably never read page 20 before.


Although, I think it's odd how so many JWs seem to still believe the thing about 'the birds eating the dead bodies' is literal.


Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:14PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


The italicized portion is italicized because I think the concerns over what parts of the imagery are literal, are not the best focus, and I have italicized what I consider to be a more productive line of inquiry...how to survive.



Well that's all fine and good, but that is not what this thread is about. ;-)  




Again, since carrion birds do eat dead bodies, this could very well occur.  I doubt they'll gorge on them day after day, as that would get very unhealthy very quickly.


And for me, any 'Armageddon' thread is about 'how to survive.' Wink  It's sort of our job, you see, to both do this, and teach others how to


(Luke 21:36) 36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that YOU may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.”



But apparently, denied subterfuge on God's part as far as what's in the Bible...is part of the whole equation.


Interesting.  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:26PM #176
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Apr 9, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Newtonian wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 10:02AM, Kemmer wrote:


So part of  knowing what Armegeddon is   means one has to learn what types of worship came from Babylon the ancient city .



Why?




Well, simply read the context.  Armageddon is discussed in Revelation 16 & 19; Babylon the Great is discussed in Revelation 17 & 18.


To avoid destruction we must obey the command to get out of Babylon the Great, and this naturally requires knowing who/what Babylon the Great is,



What nonsense!  One need never even to have heard of Babylon to be saved at Armageddon, when boiling down the JW message to its basics.  One must only submit to the GB, and that will ensure survival at Armageddon, coy denials of this straight-forward wording notwithstanding.


Secondly, your passage of scripture does not apply to any non-JW Christian church, lies of the WTS/GB notwithstanding either.  There are quite a few passages of scripture that condemn lying about others(and don't claim you don't know them), but somehow they don't ever come up with JWs when discussing behavior that God doesn't like.  Go figure.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 8:46PM #177
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Apr 10, 2012 -- 8:02PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 7:56PM, Svetlana wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Regina_Jones wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:30PM, Svetlana wrote:

Why is Armageddon more important than the good news itself, as you imply by making the teaching of Armageddon MORE important?


Implied that the teaching of armageddon is more important?  Where?



By saying that we will be killed for not stressing it, although we stress the GOOD news of God's infinite love.  If the latter is not enough to save us, then the teaching of Armageddon must be more important.


(Sorry this is late.)







Armageddon IS God's infinite love, and nothing else is possible.


If God is good and God is love, anything he purposes, wills and brings about, is good and an expression of love.  If Jesus is a just and righteous king, anything he is a part of, such as leading the armies in 'God's final war' is also righteous and just, good and love.



I see.  The brutal slaughter of countless innocents is your idea of an expression of love.  Do NOT start the garbage about God sparing EVERYONE He loves, we all know for incontrovertible fact that the WTS teaches that ONLY JWs will be saved.  Spare us your denials, they carry no weight with those of us who have read the literature.  Oh, they know better than to say it outloud, but it is there, unspoken, in every single thing you JWs post about Armageddon.  Didn't we have a long thread about how God insists we be members of just the right organization in order to make the final cut?  Didn't all of you post many passages of scripture to PROVE that we had to, even though the scriptures you posted said no such thing?  Now, all of a sudden, you're saying we do NOT have to belong to just the right organization, and that's just hypocrisy, there is no way you were convinced just because the rest of us showed that scripture didn't command it.  Nope, the WTS/GB insists emphatically that one must submit to them or  Jehovah will brutally kill them.  That's the bottom line, the element that's left when the hemming and hawing and double-speak have all been boiled away.


The brutal slaughter of innocents just because they don't submit to the WTS/GB has nothing whatsoever to do with love, GTBHS.  It's all about the egos and lust for power that describe your religious leaders.  They are so consumed with it, they, themselves, threaten the rest of us with destruction, for all the world as though Jehovah were their hit man, subject to THEIR sentencing of the rest of us.  They are so consumed with it, that they neither realize nor care how very clearly they expose themselves with their teachings.  It is because it is so very obviously about their desire for power that I KNOW I am safe in ignoring anything they have to say about it.  I am not safe in ignoring Armageddon, but perfectly safe in ignoring your leaders' twisting of scripture to make themselves rulers of the world, with Jehovah on a leash to kill anyone THEY want dead.


Oh, yes, it IS all about cleansing the world for THEM.  Cleansing it of those who do not acknowledge them as supreme rulers of all, with a token nod to Jesus now and then.  Cleansing the world of people who have a direct relationship with God, without paying the least attention to the WTS/GB.  That will certainly be a better world for THEM, won't it?  Funny, though, there is still not the least bit of love in it, except, of course, for themselves.


"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 9:08PM #178
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:27AM, mrjordan wrote:

Apr 10, 2012 -- 2:37AM, understandingtruth wrote:


I only get by this sight a couple times a year, too busy with real life to spend time in forums like this.  When I do stop in I like to see good debates & genuine questions or thoughts on real bible topics but it saddens my heart to see that every time I visit there seems to be the same individuals posting the same constant rederick.


 


If you are so holly & knowledgable you would understand that scripture clearly teaches that true knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit not the mouths of others.  We are told in scripture to go into our inner quite space to seek God intimately & to ask for His Wisdom and Spirit.  We are told that he will give us His Spirit if we ask & seek because it is His Good Will & desire for us to know Him.


 


If you know scripture as well as you think you do then why haven't you done this.  The scripture doesn't tell us to go into your quite spaace & bring your books & publications & seek Him through them.  it tells us to seek Him in prayer, meditation & His Word which we are also told is His Spirit.  We are told that no one can know His Word without the Spirit to guide & explain it to them.  Again that is why we pray, ask & waite upon Him to answer.


 


If you have a different process for recieving Gods truth which is not the process that He clearly set out, then you do not have His Truth.  He said Saten would offer himself as an angle of light so how do you sinful man know the difference?


 


Satan offfers, that means he can only try to convince you from an external source which means he must reach you through your eye's ears & flesh (feelings).  God has the power to move you & reach you in your mind & heart directly, satan cannot.  this is why God instructs us to go into our private inner space & pray to Him so He can answer us in a way that confirms that it is His Truth & Will and not a false angle of light.


 


If your truth comes from the mouths of others you are in serious trouble because the only guage you have to determine what is right or wrong is your own deceatful flesh.  There is no greater deciever than your own flesh.  there is no greater enticer than Satan.


 


Last but not least God said in 1John that true believers will have Gods Spirit & that this is how & why they do not perform unrighteousness.  Secondly it clearly states that they have no fear, none, because they ahve God Spirit so what do they have to be afraid of?


 


Jesus said you will know false prophets because they will tell lies & secondly they will try to make you affraid.  He told us not to believe them & not to be affraid.  God motivates throughLove & takes it as far as to say He is Love and we are to be as He is since we exist in & believe in Him.


 


Satan uses fear to manipulate & control, God uses Love to lead.  Now only you can answer this, if you are remotely capable of being honest with yourself then answer me this;


Do nyou believe out of love or deep down are you scared?  Is fear at the root of your motivation & belief or is fear?  Here in lies the truth in each of us.  How do you know God, is it from books written by men to explain Him to you?  Or have you found Him in your inner, intimate & quiet space.  Through prayer, meditation & fasting if need be or is it through some written word that has satisfied your own flesh & makes you feel good or bad if that is what it takes?


 


Just some simple Truth to think about.  Remember God said, "Seek Truth & Truth shall set you free".  That is from your own deceitful flesh, Satans lies & mens ignorance.


 


Best wishes & God Bless! 




Where I do agree that one should spend time in quiet reflection thinking of the words of the bible I don't agree that you try to understand the bible alone.


Sure you could read the bible and try to understand its meaning alone. It might take you a lifetime to do it but I'm sure it could be done.


Remember when you were first learning to read, write and do math. Sure you could learn to do all of this on your own but how long would it take you? More importantly how accurate would your self-taught skills be? Didn't you find learning to read, write and do math easier and fast by having teachers to accomplish these skills?


Sometimes I get the impression that people think that when someone becomes a witness that they just toss their bible out the window because now they have the WT pubs. This thinking is so far from the truth.


mrjordan,


 


I get your post but it is unfortunate you feel this way.  In 1john we are told clearly that we don't ned anyone to teach us if we are Christs (In Christ) have His Spirit and are truely His.


 


I don't need anyone to explain or break down what God has given me & if I go to Him & His Word, ask, seek & listen, He is always faithful to answer & the Holy Spirit teaches me.  I know all things that I know about God from Him not because I am a Authority or Theologan or Scholar.  Not because I have read every book on the subject or because I have memorized the biblical dictionary or some encyclopedia.  I don't need to be fluent in Greek or Hebrew (Nice parlor tricks in Gods eyes).  I simply know my father from the time I have spent in my intimate space communing with Him being taught by His Spirit & feasting at His table.


 


I would recommend everyone put down whatever they are doing & go give this a try.


God bless!


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 9:40PM #179
mrjordan
Posts: 2,019

Apr 10, 2012 -- 9:08PM, understandingtruth wrote:



mrjordan,


 


I get your post but it is unfortunate you feel this way.  In 1john we are told clearly that we don't ned anyone to teach us if we are Christs (In Christ) have His Spirit and are truely His.


 


I don't need anyone to explain or break down what God has given me & if I go to Him & His Word, ask, seek & listen, He is always faithful to answer & the Holy Spirit teaches me.  I know all things that I know about God from Him not because I am a Authority or Theologan or Scholar.  Not because I have read every book on the subject or because I have memorized the biblical dictionary or some encyclopedia.  I don't need to be fluent in Greek or Hebrew (Nice parlor tricks in Gods eyes).  I simply know my father from the time I have spent in my intimate space communing with Him being taught by His Spirit & feasting at His table.


 


I would recommend everyone put down whatever they are doing & go give this a try.


God bless!


 




Please post your scriptures that support you claim.


Also what does Matthew 28:19-20 mean to you? When Jesus says...


19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



Are we just supposed to hand someone a bible and say "Good luck!"
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 10:27PM #180
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

Apr 10, 2012 -- 9:40PM, mrjordan wrote:

Apr 10, 2012 -- 9:08PM, understandingtruth wrote:



mrjordan,


 


I get your post but it is unfortunate you feel this way.  In 1john we are told clearly that we don't ned anyone to teach us if we are Christs (In Christ) have His Spirit and are truely His.


 


I don't need anyone to explain or break down what God has given me & if I go to Him & His Word, ask, seek & listen, He is always faithful to answer & the Holy Spirit teaches me.  I know all things that I know about God from Him not because I am a Authority or Theologan or Scholar.  Not because I have read every book on the subject or because I have memorized the biblical dictionary or some encyclopedia.  I don't need to be fluent in Greek or Hebrew (Nice parlor tricks in Gods eyes).  I simply know my father from the time I have spent in my intimate space communing with Him being taught by His Spirit & feasting at His table.


 


I would recommend everyone put down whatever they are doing & go give this a try.


God bless!


 




Please post your scriptures that support you claim.


Also what does Matthew 28:19-20 mean to you? When Jesus says...


19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



Are we just supposed to hand someone a bible and say "Good luck!"


Mathew 6:6 tells us to go into our private space & pray to God.  It doesn't take allot of study to recognize this as a consistant pattern of faithful men from Old testament & the New testament, Christ included.


 


There is a time to pray together but our real time to commune with god is in that personal place & during the time we spend praying to Him. 


It is taught plainly in scripture that if we are His we will have His Spirit in us and we will be taught by it.  Go read 1John and pray God to teach you, it is plainly written there.  In case you don't want to try that just read chapter 3 and pay attention the end wraps it up and is direct / to the point. 


If you read 1John and pay close attention you will see that John clearly tells us in this context that if we are Christs / Gods that His Spirit is in us.  he then sais we have no need to be taught, presumably because we have Gods Spirit which teaches us all things.  The trick is knowing how to communicate with & listen to Gods Spirit.


 


1John is a powerhouse of information on what a real Christian looks like, sounds like & where the source is found.


 


Your quote from mathew is Gods Word and is true but the subject of what is being taught becomes subjective to your view of what is Gods Truth.  If the source of truth is your religion verses I claim it is the Spirit that lives in me which is from God.  My claim can be substantiated by my given knowledge of Gods Word which I have learned from no other source & Gods Work in my life which those who know me can testify to.  I'm not telling anyone to believe my doctrine & follow my teaching I am simply telling them to seek Him in their private space through prayer & meditation on His Word & through trust & belief in His Spirit.  Now if you do that & I'm false to what I claim & scripture sais, then it will be easy to see.  But if you do this & God moves in & around you, then you might want to consider the implications as to what you consider to be Truth & where it comes from.


 


Jesus said to test out every expression, what exactly are you to test it agfainst & how?  I suggest again that this happens in your intimate space with the Lord not in every written word from men.


 


I say these things because I have tested & found God to be true to His Word & men have a real problem with being true to theirs.


 


Hope this helps someone, God bless! 


 


  

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