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Switch to Forum Live View What exactly is Armageddon?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:39AM #51
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

To assume that all unrightousness is destroyed after the first war is inaccurate.  To assume that when the bible talks about destroying unrightouesness it is referancing the first war is inaccurate since that would make it unneccessary to have a second war.  To assume that every time you read about Gods day of war or day of vengance it is referancing Armagedon or the first war is presumptuous since God will have more than one day of war and more than one vengance.  Therefore we cannot just presume that a referance to war or vengance places a prophecy in a certain timeline but rather the context of that prophecy should give us deeper insight into when it must be taking place.


 


Now if we consider what God has said & when it must take place, things like perfection and earth & humanity in relation to perfection, it should become much clearer what war or vengance God is referancing.  Again, how do you have some perfection & some inperfection living together?  How do you grow perfection verses God simply changing imperfection into perfection by His Will?  It does not appear that He intends to grow perfection but instead to change what is into what He intends it to be.  That is what He states as His Will at the end of the 1000yrs & clearly after the last battle / war.  How do you get so many people to follow Satan on a whim from a perfect world?  In theory by the time he is released the planet should be just about perfect and yet it sounds anything but by what is discribed as the last battle and the masses that are willing to join him.  How do perfect people exist in such a place or better yet how do imperfect people still exist in a perfect world?


 


Maybe imperfect people still exist in an imperfect world & Christ rules over them to demonstrate to humanity what it would be like to live under a just King, kingdom & God.  Maybe this is the last chapter in Gods attempt to reach humanity, verify His Rightouseness and fullfill His final purpose.  Everything that has happened since the fall of man has been a responce to charges brought against God by Satan and this is a great demonstartion of evidance to give witness & testamony to the truth so that the final judgement can be passed and all who exist can know that once & for all God is Just, Truthful & Righteouse.


 


God stated it is not for man to rule over himself & that he can only do so to his own injury.  God said we need Him to govern over us & lead us.  How do we know that is true, just because He said it?  He want's to demonstrate it & we have thousands of years of our own rule & Satans rule but we don't have Gods rule.  The 1000yr will demonstrate that He told the truth & give the last piece of evidance in order to close this universal judicial hearing on Gods righteousness & bring final judgement against the unrighteous.  That is why there is a second & final war.  That is why there then comes the final judgement and the books of record are then opened & that is why earth & all creation is not set back to perfection untill that takes place.  That is why the bible, Gods Word has set this process as stated by God to take place through prophecy.


 


We must have Gods Spirit to understand Gods Word & His Will.  He said He would give it to us for that purpose if we ask & seek it.


 


Got to go for real now, God Bless & Happy Easter! 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:17AM #52
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:23AM #53
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 971

Apr 8, 2012 -- 7:03AM, Newtonian wrote:



During the 1,000 years Adamic death will be no more - but there will still be those who die as a result of not learning righteousness - dying as a mere boy though 100  years old - having evil called down upon them.   But this is also the time when the wolf and lamb will feed as one and no one will be allowed to do any harm to anyone (that is the point God will call down fire and destroy any wicked who might think to harm anyone or anything).


(Isaiah 65:20-25) . . .“No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.




Your commentary on these verses are misleading, although I understand the reasons for the inherant dishonesty of WTS corp and its followers, no need to insult  others intelligence or at least access to information:


www.watchtower.org/e/bible/isa/chapter_0...


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa...


After reading the same qouted verses from each translation there is nothing sugesting that


death only comes due to sinning, clearly these scriptures are not referring to eternal life in a paradise free of Adamic sin.    Perhaps in the holy City that comes down from heaven, besides if rightous  folks are dying at a 100 yrs  during the 1000 yrs ....whats the point?  Thats not paradise.


As the 'new heavens and new earth' descriptions continue in chapter 66  sacrifices are mentioned, viewing the decaying, maggot ridden bodies of transgressors are described is this paradise under the 1000 yrs??


www.watchtower.org/e/bible/isa/chapter_0...


has said.


22 For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making are standing before me,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “so the offspring of YOU people and the name of YOU people will keep standing.”


23 “And it will certainly occur that from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before me,” Jehovah has said. 24 “And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.”


In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:24AM #54
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Apr 7, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Regina_Jones wrote:


Apr 7, 2012 -- 8:25PM, Ed2 wrote:

Um, okay. I read all five of your articles and all of them were very vague as to going into detail as to exactly what Armageddon is. Therefore, I am once again confused and perplexed by a JW or JW apolgist's answer.


Also, Regina, correct me if I'm wrong, but were you/are you saying that the details from "The Nations Shall Know That I am Jehovah" book and the details of the Ezekiel prophecies no longer apply to Armaggedon anymore? Also, are you saying that the details about Gog [of] the land of Ma´gog in Ezekiel 38 and 39 no longer correspond to the Gog and Ma´gog in Revelation 20:7-8 anymore?


Therefore, Regina, unfortunately, I am looking for a discussion about details...not about vagueness. I hope you understand.


Then present details and not your own vague memories ('what I recall').


And maybe consider a book that has more than one reference to Armageddon in it.  It is unlikely that a book with just one reference to Armageddon is really going to address the subject.



Why are you being so hostile, Regina? I mean, that was the whole purpose of the discussion...for me to recall as much as I can on the subject...based on my own personal experience with "The Nations" book...and the rest of the discussion was for others to add more information about what they knew about the topic....and/or to let me know whether or not the information that I presented was accurate.


However, from what you are suggesting....you seem to now want me to present the whole 9 yards about this topic and to present more information about this topic from more references. Also, where did you get the impression that "The Nation Shall Know That I am Jehovah" book has only one reference to Armaggedon? ....Which unfortunately reveals your lack of knowledge about "The Nation" book.


Addtionally, Regina, please don't take this the wrong way...but I can't but help to think about GTBHS's Gary Zukav quote which says: "All hostility originates in fear."

Moderated by Nanalulu222 on Apr 08, 2012 - 09:59AM
I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:27AM #55
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

What is the JW definition of "wicked"?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:36AM #56
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 971

Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:27AM, Kemmer wrote:


What is the JW definition of "wicked"?




And 'honesty'?

In the vindication of the truth
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:45AM #57
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Apr 8, 2012 -- 5:28AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - OK, I read the whole thread.   Of course, you missed details in Ezekiel as well as cross references. 



Well, as I was telling Regina...that's the whole point of the thread. And it wasn't for me to have metioned every little detail in Ezekiel as well as cross references...but for others to add in their knowledge about the subject to the thread...in order to provide a discussion. 


Apr 8, 2012 -- 5:28AM, Newtonian wrote:


For example, you missed the special punishment at Armageddon for those who actually fight against God's people - the flesh eating plague at Armageddon - though we do not know if this will be fulfilled literally or not [up to Jesus and Jehovah, of course):


(Zechariah 14:12, 13) . . .“And this is what will prove to be the scourge with which Jehovah will scourge all the peoples that will actually do military service against Jerusalem: There will be a rotting away of one’s flesh, while one is standing upon one’s feet; and one’s very eyes will rot away in their sockets, and one’s very tongue will rot away in one’s mouth. 13 “And it must occur in that day [that] confusion from Jehovah will become widespread among them; and they will actually grab hold, each one of the hand of his companion, and his hand will actually come up against the hand of his companion.



Oh, I see.


Apr 8, 2012 -- 5:28AM, Newtonian wrote:


And, of course, you missed the increased emphasis Jehovah's Witnesses have on the good news of God's Kingdom (we only rarely reference the flesh eating plague) as a result of our love for our neighbor and our sharing God's desire that none be destroyed as per 2 Peter 3:9


(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.


Thus the good news of God's Kingdom involves the answer to Jesus prayer (Matthew 6:9,10) for God's Kingdom to come - and what it will do when it comes (Daniel 2:44){Armageddon} - e.g. the 1,000 year reign of Christ that immediately follows - see this link for additional details about this good news of God's Kingdom that must be preached before the end comes (Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10 -


www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_08.htm


Ed - please see this chapter and the Scriptures cited - it is good news!



Sorry, Newtonian, but I think that you are veering off the topic with the above. Also, your quote above sounds more like JW propaganda, then it does anything else. Wink


But please, let's stick to the subject.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:50AM #58
Nanalulu222
Posts: 9,049

Apr 8, 2012 -- 5:39AM, understandingtruth wrote:


I have spent a great deal of time looking at Revelation & related end times prophecy.  I find it interesting that when it speaks about Armagedon it talks about the Army's & Kings of the earth gathering there to wage war not neccessarily all of humanity.  It also makes direct referance to the fact that they are there to war against the Holy City, a very specific place & location as well.  It may be a bit presumptuos to think this is the final destruction of the wicked instead of simply the defeat of evil forces in a process that will then set up a temporary form of Godly government on a still imperfect earth which will exist 1000yrs.  Later another battle will take place that actually sounds allot like Armagedon at the end of the 1000yr rein where all evil & humanity which is not Gods is then discribed as being finally destroyed. 


 


Interestingly enough I find Revelation talks about those who recieve the mark of the beast as those who will not be accepted into Gods kingdom, they all belong to the Dragon (Devil).  However there is allot presumed in thinking they are all destroyed at Armagedon since it is not a stated / written fact.  What we do is assume He will destroy them at Armagedon but what if that isn't what He does.  What if they continue to exist and God destroyes the earthly army's & governments & sets up his temporary government with Christ as the head and they are now subject under it?  Maybe they live out the remainder of their existance and then die with no hope of eternity but their children would have the opportunity to accept Christ & God as their Savior & King & God or not.  The bible does teach that God will not hold accountable the chidren for the parrents sins.  It teaches that a just God would hold each accountable on their own merrit & it clearly teaches we will all stand individually before the Lord to be judged.  Do you think he will sit their & say to that individual, I'm sorry but your parents were no good so now you must suffer eternal condemnation while their standing alone in front of Him?  Does this even sound remotely like something a just Judge would do?  If that was the case why not judge them in groups since they seem to be guilty for what others in the group did but God clearly states in scripture He will not do this.


 


I know this sounds crazy to some but think about the referances in Revelation that give the discriptions of the destruction of humanity for their sinful & unrepentant ways?  think about all the woes & punishment & how they curse God in all their suffering until they are finally destroyed.  Nothing is mentioned about the timing of this event in these discriptions.  Instead it is assumed by the readers and yet if we give sound reasoning to these events we can see that if humanity is to be destroyed in such a final set of actions it would make more sence that this aligns with Gods final destuction of all evil at the end of the 1000yrs verses His establishment of a temporary kingdom at its beginning.


 


I think that if you go back and reread Revelation & stop to think about it, take away the assumptions that are made and realy think about it and what makes sence, you just might find some very interesting points to consider.  Remember that Revelations does not give direct chronological record of what is to come in how it is written from chapter1 verse1 but rather it jumps from event to event & time to time so we cannot just assume when things are taking place but rather think about what we are being told is taking place, what it means for humanity & God and then how should it fall if we had to place it on a time scale.  When we do this it realy changes the general layout of where & when some of the parts of the overall context of Revelation should be happening.


 


So if God is wiping out humanity and all unrightuosness as discribed, it makes more sence that this is at the end of the 1000yrs when he does the final judging and creates the new heavens & Earth & then comes down to dwell with mankind forever in a new state of being.  It also makes sense since this is discribed as when the books are opened for doing the final judging.  So what is happening at Armagedon as it is difinitively discribed?  Sounds to me like armies & kings are destroyed so a temporary Kingdom under Gods athority may rule for a set time over remaining humanity.  Nothing in these scriptures states that this moment in time cleanses away all sin or even all sinful people for that matter.  There are no biblical referances that denote this as the exact time for a cleansed or perfect world and in fact those contexts are clearly stated in revelation as coming after the  final judgement when the books are opened & all unrightouesness is done away with.  Revelation unmistakenly states that then God creates the New Heavens & New Earth and then perfection is set in motion, not before.  Then is when your Lion will lay with the Lamb & the child will play with the Cobra.


 


God bless!


 


We should use the mind God gave us  to read His Word with and think about what is being said verses what mans doctines are saying and most of all we need to beg God to show us His Truth and maybe we will be surprised by what we find. 




Hello understandingtruth,


Welcome to the DJW board (I don't believe I have seen you post here before?).  Look forward to seeing more posts from you.



With regards,
Nanalulu222Smile


DJW co-host

Conservative Christian.  Remember: you're unique, just like everyone else.
DJW community host.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 10:01AM #59
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Hey Ed2


This is a good post, and it is interesting the different views on this subject. But as most here will know, people have been talking about Armageddon and the end of the world for the last 2000 years, nearly every generation has had there hard liners preaching the end and setting dates and miserably failing. The one difference between them generations and ours, is Israel, Israel is Gods prophetic time peace, all the other generations have had floods, earthquakes and wars, but there was no Israel back in there own land, today we have more earthquakes recorded in the last 15 years than in the whole of recorded history, we have had floods and we have had so many wars including two world wars that have killed millions, we have many wars going on at this very minute, and more importantly we have a literal Israel in its own land that God gave them with Jerusalem as there capital speaking there original language using there original currency.


As for the beast described in Revelations 17:16, well first i would not use the NWT it has added "wild beast" for some reason when every translation bar none says "beast", but if we are to understand this beast or more to the point what it refers to, we need only go to back a few verses and it will explain the meaning of the beast. If we look at this verse Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


The seven heads are the seven hills of Rome, when we read all these different end time prophets, we have to understand the symbolism they use, we read in Daniel about an image that represents empires that are mostly historical today but the last empire is a future empire which is also the revived Roman empire, this is described as the ten toes of Iron and clay, it sits on seven hills(Rome) and the ten crowns represent ten kingdoms or countries that were ruled by the Romans, these are European countries, and i believe that the last empire that will be ruled by the Anti Christ will be the EU, the revived Roman Empire, The EU are trying very hard to become the united states of Europe, according to prophesy there will be three countries ripped out of it.  


The Anti Christ is a future world leader who makes a peace treaty with Israel and its neighbours, it allows them to have there sacrifice in there temple and he will work with the religion for three and a half years then he will destroy all religion and start his own which means every one worships him and will have to have a mark on there right hand or fore head, the whore of Babylon will be the Roman catholic church.He(Anti Christ) will take his army to magido and war against many armies but God comes back and destroys them all.


The fact is there are many different interpretations out there, there is not many that go along with the Biblical interpretation, absolutely no interpretation that spiritualises Israel can be correct, it can only work with a literal Israel, there is a lot more to it than what i have tried to explain, but i believe what i have shown is Biblical.


God Bless You


Denis.


   

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 11:01AM #60
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

... the whore of Babylon will be the Roman catholic church...



That's all?!  Nobody else?  Not even the Methodists?

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