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Switch to Forum Live View What exactly is Armageddon?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:25AM #41
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

Consider Jeramiah 31: 33-40 & Hebrews 8: 7-13,


 


here we are told specifically that under the new covenant God will put His laws in the minds & write them on the hearts of those that are His.  He states that no longer will man need to teach man because it will be given to them just as instinct is given to the animals we shall have Gods Truth placed in us, written permanently.  The context also states God will remember our sins no more & all will be forgiven & done.  At the end of the verses it clearly states that this will be eternal not temporary as well.


 


So when does all this finally happen?  If he has done this do we still have to go out & seek Him in such a way that we will be needing to go to a Holy Mountain to make offerings?  Did God have Adam & Eve behaving as worshippers or as children?  Were they recipients of His Love therefore he simply gave them all they needed & they loved Him back & communed with Him or did He make them worship Him to appease Him into giving them what they needed?  You see when our position before Him changed our approach & His actions towards us did as well.  That is when worship came into play not before.


 


So if He is going to write everything on our hearts so that we will have what we need not to sin and if He is going to remember our sins no more and forgive all, we will be back to the place that Adam & Eve were before the fall.  Does the bible give direct evidance of us having to worship Him any longer after He creates a new Heavens & New earth?  We may give Him or Praise & Love & Addoration but our position & existance with Him will be uniquely different & not as we now know & understand it at this time.


 


If you give some thought to these facts and then go back & look at the prophecies from places like Daniel, Ezekial or Revelation, think about what is being done & who is doing it.  Then think about what God has said He will do & when.  now if kings are still having to seek God & worship Him, does it sound like a  time when He has written His laws on their hearts & in their minds and all has been forgiven?  God also said that man would not have to teach man once he had finished His Will on their Hearts.  Sounds like true perfection, so what is it if men are still worshipping & seeking God & leading one another in these things? 


 


Yet the wording of these prophecies sounds like a perfect time but the problem is we are judging perfection by our standards not Gods, think about it.  This will start to make you think about the timing of prophecy in a different light.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:33AM #42
Newtonian
Posts: 11,350

Oh, one more point understanding truth -


Is. 11:3-9, the earthly paradise, will be fulfilled both during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and after the short period of time Satan is let loose and the final war.


I.e. the earthly paradise is not either/or - it is both!    And God and Magog will not be allowed to harm God's people in that final attack at the end of the 1,000 years.


However, we must first get through the first attack of God of Magog described in Ezekiel and then learn righteousness during the 1,000 year reign along with the many who will be resurrected during those 1,000 years (see Revelation 20)-


(Isaiah 26:9, 10) . . .With my soul I have desired you in the night; yes, with my spirit within me I keep looking for you; because, when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn. 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.


There are additional Scriptural details, if you are interested.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:43AM #43
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

I agree that there are three wars clearly defined in prophecy and they are one in heaven to cleans that environment & then two on earth to cleans it.  However I belieeve that ther is allot of wrong assumption of what is taking place & when in relation to these two wars on earth.  If you consider the very clear statements of what happens after the second war, which is a final cleansing & then it ststes a New Heavens & New Earth and all things are finally placed back to perfection.  This is what God has said, so how do we get a perfect world before the second war has happened?


 


I can't find any language to connect the first war to the events that are so clearly ststaed as happening after the second war.  I do however see allot of presumptions that the language is suposed to happening after the first war.  I respecrfully think these are clearly wrong.  I think you are reading about what will happen after the second & final war but are assuming & placing the information as though it were happening after the first.  therefore the language ends up in conflict with what God has clearly ststaed He will do.  Since God can not lie we must take into consideration what He intends to do & realign what prophecy tells us must happen with His intentions and that will change your time lign.  it is the only way His Words can hold true.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:44AM #44
Newtonian
Posts: 11,350

Apr 8, 2012 -- 6:25AM, understandingtruth wrote:


Consider Jeramiah 31: 33-40 & Hebrews 8: 7-13,


 


here we are told specifically that under the new covenant God will put His laws in the minds & write them on the hearts of those that are His.  He states that no longer will man need to teach man because it will be given to them just as instinct is given to the animals we shall have Gods Truth placed in us, written permanently.  The context also states God will remember our sins no more & all will be forgiven & done.  At the end of the verses it clearly states that this will be eternal not temporary as well.


 


So when does all this finally happen?  If he has done this do we still have to go out & seek Him in such a way that we will be needing to go to a Holy Mountain to make offerings?  Did God have Adam & Eve behaving as worshippers or as children?  Were they recipients of His Love therefore he simply gave them all they needed & they loved Him back & communed with Him or did He make them worship Him to appease Him into giving them what they needed?  You see when our position before Him changed our approach & His actions towards us did as well.  That is when worship came into play not before.


 


So if He is going to write everything on our hearts so that we will have what we need not to sin and if He is going to remember our sins no more and forgive all, we will be back to the place that Adam & Eve were before the fall.  Does the bible give direct evidance of us having to worship Him any longer after He creates a new Heavens & New earth?  We may give Him or Praise & Love & Addoration but our position & existance with Him will be uniquely different & not as we now know & understand it at this time.


 


If you give some thought to these facts and then go back & look at the prophecies from places like Daniel, Ezekial or Revelation, think about what is being done & who is doing it.  Then think about what God has said He will do & when.  now if kings are still having to seek God & worship Him, does it sound like a  time when He has written His laws on their hearts & in their minds and all has been forgiven?  God also said that man would not have to teach man once he had finished His Will on their Hearts.  Sounds like true perfection, so what is it if men are still worshipping & seeking God & leading one another in these things? 


 


Yet the wording of these prophecies sounds like a perfect time but the problem is we are judging perfection by our standards not Gods, think about it.  This will start to make you think about the timing of prophecy in a different light.




Understanding truth - Well, you have part of it correct.   Indeed some do not reach perfection until the end of the 1,000 years - otherwise there would be no need for judges and priests - as those who rule with Christ forever, are also priests interceding for us for the 1,000 years - but not forever:


(Revelation 20:4-6) And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


Currently, and also during the 1,000 years when the new scrolls are opened, we are and will be taught.


Now we (Jehovah's Witnesses) are being taught and thus are enjoying the miraculous fulfillment of this prophecy and thus learn war no more!


(Isaiah 2:2-4) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.


During the 1,000 years we will learn from the new scrolls that are opened then:


(Revelation 20:12-21:5) . . .And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”


Note that death is not literally tormented in the lake of fire - rather all that is/are thrown into the lake of fire are no more!   Yes, death will be no more!


And that is all part of the good news of God's Kingdom!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:46AM #45
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

Please forgive the spelling in my posts, spell check is not working.


 


I have to go, familly will be getting up soon and we are going to have a very happy Easter together!


 


God bless!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:52AM #46
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Apr 8, 2012 -- 6:25AM, understandingtruth wrote:

Consider Jeramiah 31: 33-40 & Hebrews 8: 7-13,


 


here we are told specifically that under the new covenant God will put His laws in the minds & write them on the hearts of those that are His.  He states that no longer will man need to teach man because it will be given to them just as instinct is given to the animals we shall have Gods Truth placed in us, written permanently.  The context also states God will remember our sins no more & all will be forgiven & done.  At the end of the verses it clearly states that this will be eternal not temporary as well.


 


So when does all this finally happen?  If he has done this do we still have to go out & seek Him in such a way that we will be needing to go to a Holy Mountain to make offerings?  Did God have Adam & Eve behaving as worshippers or as children?  Were they recipients of His Love therefore he simply gave them all they needed & they loved Him back & communed with Him or did He make them worship Him to appease Him into giving them what they needed?  You see when our position before Him changed our approach & His actions towards us did as well.  That is when worship came into play not before.


 


So if He is going to write everything on our hearts so that we will have what we need not to sin and if He is going to remember our sins no more and forgive all, we will be back to the place that Adam & Eve were before the fall.  Does the bible give direct evidance of us having to worship Him any longer after He creates a new Heavens & New earth?  We may give Him or Praise & Love & Addoration but our position & existance with Him will be uniquely different & not as we now know & understand it at this time.


 


If you give some thought to these facts and then go back & look at the prophecies from places like Daniel, Ezekial or Revelation, think about what is being done & who is doing it.  Then think about what God has said He will do & when.  now if kings are still having to seek God & worship Him, does it sound like a  time when He has written His laws on their hearts & in their minds and all has been forgiven?  God also said that man would not have to teach man once he had finished His Will on their Hearts.  Sounds like true perfection, so what is it if men are still worshipping & seeking God & leading one another in these things? 


 


Yet the wording of these prophecies sounds like a perfect time but the problem is we are judging perfection by our standards not Gods, think about it.  This will start to make you think about the timing of prophecy in a different light.


Hey understandingtruth


This is a great post very accurate, hope to see you around this furm more often.


God Bless You


Denis.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:55AM #47
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

Folks one last point,


 


How exactly are some to reach perfection & some not while all are still living in an imperfect world?  Find where a God states or even insinuates that in scripture.  His statements are not partial or temporary or in process but instead He said, "In that day I will......."  He is not refering to a time that is in progress but is refering to a time that has already come in thee context.  It is the time of the new covenant and some will not be still judged or condemed while others are not.  He is stating that all will be placed in the same position with the same mind & heart, no more sin, over & done.


 


This isn't something you work through it's something He does & it's done.  It's finished & then there is perfection not some perfection & some inperfection.  There is no scriptural evidance that perfect people will have to still live in an imperfect world & yet that is what it will be if some are still imperfect.  Everything God has given states that when man is made pefect so will his environment which he lives in.


 


I still say you are misplacing your timeline, sorry!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:03AM #48
Newtonian
Posts: 11,350

Understanding truth - Please be assured I am not assuming anything.   The thousand year reign of Christ will be after he abyssing of Satan and his demons at Armageddon - and this is when the great evening meal of God foretold in Revelation and Ezekiel for the birds and wild beasts upon the wicked who are destroyed occurs.   Do you agree?  


Now, granted, it will be better after the final war since there will be no need for judging or a priesthood as there is during the 1,000 years.  However, I can assure you that Jesus' 1,000 year reign will be beautiful indeed!   


Perhaps you did not understand this account - it is obviously not talking about after the 1,000 years because, as you correctly noted - no one will need to be taught righteousness after that - though I am sure we will learn much more - learn forever, in fact!   Again, this account:


(Isaiah 26:9, 10) . . .With my soul I have desired you in the night; yes, with my spirit within me I keep looking for you; because, when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn. 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.


Note that these judgments involve Armageddon (separation of the sheep and goat and destruction of the goats as per Jesus' illustration) and the 1,000 year judgment 'day' wherein many will learn righteousness but some wicked who are resurrected (see Acts 24:15 please) will not learn righteousness and will act unjustly.


This is during the 1,000 year reign - after the 1,000 years there will be no wicked nor will there be anyone who acts unjustly at all.


During the 1,000 years Adamic death will be no more - but there will still be those who die as a result of not learning righteousness - dying as a mere boy though 100  years old - having evil called down upon them.   But this is also the time when the wolf and lamb will feed as one and no one will be allowed to do any harm to anyone (that is the point God will call down fire and destroy any wicked who might think to harm anyone or anything).


(Isaiah 65:20-25) . . .“No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him. 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them. 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear. 25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” Jehovah has said.


So, yes, it will be even better after the final test and final war after the 1,000 years - but oh how beautiful it will be during the 1,000 years!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:08AM #49
Newtonian
Posts: 11,350

Oh, btw, I need a nap - I woke up to early (central Standard time - US) - so to be continued.


Understanding truth - I enjoyed discussing the Scriptures with you and I appreciate even more how much better it will be after the thousand years having had this discussion!


I hope you also learned and enjoyed!


But off to sleep for me for now!

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 7:14AM #50
Newtonian
Posts: 11,350

Understanding truth - Sure, we are likely to refine our understanding of the times and seasons that belong to Jehovah - see Acts 1:6,7.  e.g. we do not know what will be in those new scrolls!


However, the whole point of those ruling with Jesus servind as priests for the 1,000 yearrs is to help us reach perfection!


The good news now is that Jehovah's Witnesses are already enjoying the miraculous fulfillment of Isaiah 2:2-4 in that we are walking in God's paths, learning God's ways and learning war no more!


Some limit the fulfillment of this prophecy to after Armageddon - but, thank Jehovah, Jesus has taught us to learn war no more now!   We don't have to wait!   That is also part of the good news of God's Kingdom.


I am sorry, but I do need to nap!   Unless I see another post by you before I log off and nod off!Smile

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