Post Reply
Page 38 of 42  •  Prev 1 ... 36 37 38 39 40 ... 42 Next
Switch to Forum Live View What exactly is Armageddon?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:01PM #371
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:46PM, mrjordan wrote:


Ok, when you look at the world around you what do you see? Who are those asking that you be no part of this world?




It's all in the eyes of the beholder, and despite some rare mishaps, I see breathtaking beauty most of the time and everywhere I look. If you see a world you want to be no part of, that says something about you and you alone.


I do a lot of photography, and this is what I see from my living room window.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:14PM #372
mrjordan
Posts: 2,084

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:01PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:46PM, mrjordan wrote:


Ok, when you look at the world around you what do you see? Who are those asking that you be no part of this world?




It's all in the eyes of the beholder, and despite some rare mishaps, I see breathtaking beauty most of the time and everywhere I look. If you see a world you want to be no part of, that says something about you and you alone.


I do a lot of photography, and this is what I see from my living room window.




So lets insert this comment into the story,


A fireman comes to your house and tell you that the house next door is on fire. They can't control the blaze and they ask you to leave your house because your house is in danger. You look outside and see this. You close your door.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:19PM #373
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:14PM, mrjordan wrote:


A fireman comes to your house and tell you that the house next door is on fire. They can't control the blaze and they ask you to leave your house because your house is in danger. You look outside and see this. You close your door.




You see any flames or smoke in that picture? By the way, the house next door to mine is about 200 yards away.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 9:25PM #374
mrjordan
Posts: 2,084

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:19PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:14PM, mrjordan wrote:


A fireman comes to your house and tell you that the house next door is on fire. They can't control the blaze and they ask you to leave your house because your house is in danger. You look outside and see this. You close your door.




You see any flames or smoke in that picture? By the way, the house next door to mine is about 200 yards away.




You said once that I live in a place to make myself feel better.


Certainly you are not doing the same.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:03PM #375
marken
Posts: 3,706


He  is  a  mighty  King  in  heaven  that  is  planning  a  full  attack  against  wickedness.  He  is the  head  of  the  Christian  congregation  and  according  to  the  scriptures, he  does  speak  to  us  today.  Hebrews 1:1-4.  It is like  if  I  say  I  was  speaking  with  Cherubino just now. I  am  actually  reading  his  thoughts  and  Jesus  left us  scores  of  his  thoughts.  Yes, it is  true  that  under  inspiration  from Almighty  God,that  other  men  wrote  down  these  thoughts, but  that  does  not  lessen  them.  He  cannot  tell you  what  it  is like to  be  dead  because  the  dead  are  unconcious  and  have  no  thoughts.  But he  can  direct you  to  life  if  you demonstrate  faith in  him. 


with affection from Marken




But here's the problem. There isn't one Jesus. As it turns out, he's a flexible, multifaceted and often self-contradictory literary device and has been since day one. That's why Christianity is currently divided into about 40,000 denominations, most of which aren't even on speaking terms with the other 39,999, yet all of them claim to be founded on the Bible. How can an outsider determine which one of these, if any, is correct? By what impartial standard might we judge each group's claim to be the real deal?



There is  only one  Jesus Christ, the  Lord,  to  Christians.  It is people  who  are  actually inflexible, that  refuse  to  let  go  of  their  preconceived ideas  and  accept  him  as  he  really is.  1 Cor 8:5.  He  actually prophesied  about  this  condition  at Matt 7:21-27.  It is  the  responsibility of  each  person that  is  a  reader  of  the  scriptures  to  do  what it  tells  you.  Dissension is not new,  so  Paul informed  us  of  the proper  course  to  take  at 1  Cor.1:10-19


with affection  from  Marken

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:09PM #376
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:25PM, mrjordan wrote:


You said once that I live in a place to make myself feel better.


Certainly you are not doing the same.




I don't recall saying that, but I do think geography plays a big role in shaping our lives and outlook. In fact, I wrote a piece on all this a while back.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 8:29AM #377
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 24, 2012 -- 10:03PM, marken wrote:



He  is  a  mighty  King  in  heaven  that  is  planning  a  full  attack  against  wickedness.  He  is the  head  of  the  Christian  congregation  and  according  to  the  scriptures, he  does  speak  to  us  today.  Hebrews 1:1-4.  It is like  if  I  say  I  was  speaking  with  Cherubino just now. I  am  actually  reading  his  thoughts  and  Jesus  left us  scores  of  his  thoughts.  Yes, it is  true  that  under  inspiration  from Almighty  God,that  other  men  wrote  down  these  thoughts, but  that  does  not  lessen  them.  He  cannot  tell you  what  it  is like to  be  dead  because  the  dead  are  unconcious  and  have  no  thoughts.  But he  can  direct you  to  life  if  you demonstrate  faith in  him. 


with affection from Marken




But here's the problem. There isn't one Jesus. As it turns out, he's a flexible, multifaceted and often self-contradictory literary device and has been since day one. That's why Christianity is currently divided into about 40,000 denominations, most of which aren't even on speaking terms with the other 39,999, yet all of them claim to be founded on the Bible. How can an outsider determine which one of these, if any, is correct? By what impartial standard might we judge each group's claim to be the real deal?



There is  only one  Jesus Christ, the  Lord,  to  Christians.  It is people  who  are  actually inflexible, that  refuse  to  let  go  of  their  preconceived ideas  and  accept  him  as  he  really is.  1 Cor 8:5.  He  actually prophesied  about  this  condition  at Matt 7:21-27.  It is  the  responsibility of  each  person that  is  a  reader  of  the  scriptures  to  do  what it  tells  you.  Dissension is not new,  so  Paul informed  us  of  the proper  course  to  take  at 1  Cor.1:10-19


with affection  from  Marken




But right from the beginning you've got disagreement between Paul and other early Christians, especially the authors of the so-called gnostic gospels of roughly the second century. In the gospel according to Thomas, for example, Jesus says, "If you  bring forth what is within you what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." There's no claim to third-party, scarificial redemption here, no glorified kingdom in the hereafter. So we know that there was a time when not everyone who called themselves Christians regarded the writings of Paul or the synoptic gospels as scripture. I think one of the most intriguing questions in the history of early history of Christianity is, why were these writings suppressed?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:42PM #378
Discerner
Posts: 1,717

Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Okay, so why do the resurrected 'unrighteous' get an 'unimpeded choice,' with no influence from outside forces such as influence from a wicked society, from Satan, etc., even though the majority of people who are slaughtered during Armageddon don't get that choice, including children and babies? ...Oh that's right...the Watchtower teaches that babies are suppose to get resurrected after they are slaughtered during Armageddon. But how about everyone else?



Also, I'm curious about something...do the people who were exterminated from the land of Canaan before the Israelites confiscated it...do they get resurrected? Just curious.




I don't know what the 'proportion' of people will be, that either do, or do not get a chance at resurrection in the Millenium from the numbers who die at Armageddon.  We know we won't reach everyone, so there is a lot of potential for 'resurrectees' or even for some to be simply preserved alive.  So I can't confirm or deny your use of the word 'majority.'   And we don't 'teach that babies are supposed to be resurrected,' we simply admit we don't know for certain, and it is useless to try to pin down, who will and who won't survive, or be resurrected.  It's not the best use of one's time, in other words.


We know some things as close as certain as we can be, those with  loyalty to Babylon the Great, having been offered the chance to 'flee her' but who do not, share with her in her plagues.  Accepting the mark of the beast, or allowing our lives to be ruled by the world's governments over God's kingdom, will be fatal.  God, through Christ, judges who has had the chance to flee Bablyon and does not, and who has the opportunity to reject the 'mark' and does not.  (Rev chapters 14, 18)


We try to concentrate on our mission and our commission, to preach the kingdom, teach humanity how to flee Babylon, and how to reject that 'mark.'  The rest is in God's hands. 


The Canaanites were not exterminated, by the way.  Rahab's family survived, and four cities were preserved because they sued for peace by sending a delegation of Gibeonites to Joshua.  Of the ones who did die, I see no reason to call them, as a group, anything other than the 'unrighteous,' who would simply be in 'Sheol,' and those in Sheol, or Hades in the Greek, are resurrected, and if any of them individually were 'wicked' and are in Gehenna, they of course will not be brought back.




Where in the Bible does it say that 'babies' will be killed in the period of Armageddon? Book, chapter and verse, please! Is the reference to Armageddon a metaphor that describes the spiritual warfare that will be manifested between Christ and His foe, Satan? Armageddon may be the preparation for the final solution of the sin problem, which will be completely resolved after the millennial period.


Discerner

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:28AM #379
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:42PM, Discerner wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Okay, so why do the resurrected 'unrighteous' get an 'unimpeded choice,' with no influence from outside forces such as influence from a wicked society, from Satan, etc., even though the majority of people who are slaughtered during Armageddon don't get that choice, including children and babies? ...Oh that's right...the Watchtower teaches that babies are suppose to get resurrected after they are slaughtered during Armageddon. But how about everyone else?



Also, I'm curious about something...do the people who were exterminated from the land of Canaan before the Israelites confiscated it...do they get resurrected? Just curious.




I don't know what the 'proportion' of people will be, that either do, or do not get a chance at resurrection in the Millenium from the numbers who die at Armageddon.  We know we won't reach everyone, so there is a lot of potential for 'resurrectees' or even for some to be simply preserved alive.  So I can't confirm or deny your use of the word 'majority.'   And we don't 'teach that babies are supposed to be resurrected,' we simply admit we don't know for certain, and it is useless to try to pin down, who will and who won't survive, or be resurrected.  It's not the best use of one's time, in other words.


We know some things as close as certain as we can be, those with  loyalty to Babylon the Great, having been offered the chance to 'flee her' but who do not, share with her in her plagues.  Accepting the mark of the beast, or allowing our lives to be ruled by the world's governments over God's kingdom, will be fatal.  God, through Christ, judges who has had the chance to flee Bablyon and does not, and who has the opportunity to reject the 'mark' and does not.  (Rev chapters 14, 18)


We try to concentrate on our mission and our commission, to preach the kingdom, teach humanity how to flee Babylon, and how to reject that 'mark.'  The rest is in God's hands. 


The Canaanites were not exterminated, by the way.  Rahab's family survived, and four cities were preserved because they sued for peace by sending a delegation of Gibeonites to Joshua.  Of the ones who did die, I see no reason to call them, as a group, anything other than the 'unrighteous,' who would simply be in 'Sheol,' and those in Sheol, or Hades in the Greek, are resurrected, and if any of them individually were 'wicked' and are in Gehenna, they of course will not be brought back.




Where in the Bible does it say that 'babies' will be killed in the period of Armageddon? Book, chapter and verse, please! Is the reference to Armageddon a metaphor that describes the spiritual warfare that will be manifested between Christ and His foe, Satan? Armageddon may be the preparation for the final solution of the sin problem, which will be completely resolved after the millennial period.


Discerner



Hi, Discerner. Primarily, JWs base their understanding that babies will be killed in the period of Armageddon on Jesus' word at Matthew 24:37-39:




37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.



And therefore, since an entire world of people were suppose to have been destroyed in the flood(including babies), with the expection of the 8 people who were in the ark, JWs understand that the words at Matthew 24:37-39 would apply in a similar way to the second coming of Jesus/Armageddon.


Also, I wanted to refer you to the quote that I made from JWs book, "The Nations Shall Know That I am Jehovah" in my post #212 on page 22.


And in that quote, JWs' "The Nations" book links Gog, of the land of Magog from Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8 and to Satan and to the battle of Armageddon in the book of Revelation.


And here is a quote from that book from page 20 paragraph 16, which is a quote of Ezekiel 38:18-23(emphasis mine):



16 "And it shall come to pass in that day, in the day when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah, [that] my fury shall come up in my face; for in my jealousy, in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Verily in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; so that the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the heavens, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things which creep upon the earth, and all mankind that are upon the face of the earth shall shake at my presence; and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord Jehovah: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will enter into judgment with him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, overflowing rain and great hailstones, fire and brimstone. And I will magnify myself, and sanctify myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] Jehovah."  — Ezekiel 38:18-23, Da



Also, here is a quote from paragraph 22 of that book, which is based on Ezekiel 39:8-10:



22Not a human on the side against Jehovah's theocratic organization will survive. None of their dead will be given a decent burial in memorial tombs. The extent of the slaughter may be measured by the number of the enemy taking part in the war and being annihilated. The wood of the weapons of Gog's hordes, the shields, targets, bows and arrows, handstaves and spears, will be so immense a pile that it will take seven years to use it up as fuel, without collecting any wood from the forests. What wealth the exterminated ones will leave behind! The would-be despoilers of Jehovah's people will themselves be despoiled. — Ezekiel 39:8-10.


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...



Plus, here's a quote by Newtonian from Jeremiah 25:31-33 from his post #39 on page 4(emphasis mine):


31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...



Therefore, that is what they base their belief on that everyone from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth who are not in Jehovah's favor, which would include the children and the babies of the parents who are no in Jehovah's favor(similar to how it was during Noah's flood), will be killed in the period of Armageddon.




Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:44PM #380
marken
Posts: 3,706



He  is  a  mighty  King  in  heaven  that  is  planning  a  full  attack  against  wickedness.  He  is the  head  of  the  Christian  congregation  and  according  to  the  scriptures, he  does  speak  to  us  today.  Hebrews 1:1-4.  It is like  if  I  say  I  was  speaking  with  Cherubino just now. I  am  actually  reading  his  thoughts  and  Jesus  left us  scores  of  his  thoughts.  Yes, it is  true  that  under  inspiration  from Almighty  God,that  other  men  wrote  down  these  thoughts, but  that  does  not  lessen  them.  He  cannot  tell you  what  it  is like to  be  dead  because  the  dead  are  unconcious  and  have  no  thoughts.  But he  can  direct you  to  life  if  you demonstrate  faith in  him. 







But right from the beginning you've got disagreement between Paul and other early Christians, especially the authors of the so-called gnostic gospels of roughly the second century. In the gospel according to Thomas, for example, Jesus says, "If you  bring forth what is within you what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." There's no claim to third-party, scarificial redemption here, no glorified kingdom in the hereafter. So we know that there was a time when not everyone who called themselves Christians regarded the writings of Paul or the synoptic gospels as scripture. I think one of the most intriguing questions in the history of early history of Christianity is, why were these writings suppressed?



I  believe  what  2 Tim 3:16 tells  me   and  that  is  that  all  scripture  is  inspired  by  God.  This  causes  me  to  believe  that  the  author  of  these scriptures,  that  is  Jehovah,  would  make  sure  that  all of  it  is  available  to  christians.  if  anyone  were  able  to  suppress  a  writing, it  would  indicate  to me  that  it  is  not  inspired  scripture.  Also,  different  portions of  Christendom  may  accept  certain  ancient  writings  as  scripture  whereas,  they  are  not  included  in  most  of the  modern  translations  as  inspired.  For instance,  the  Book  of  Mormon is  accepted  by  their  adherents  as  scripture.  I  don't  know  of  any  of  the  other  branches  of  christendom  that  accept  these.   I  believe  it  is  the  same  with  what  you  claim  was  written  by  the  apostle  Thomas.  So  far,  most  of christendom do  not  accept these  as  scripture. 


with  affection  from  Marken

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 38 of 42  •  Prev 1 ... 36 37 38 39 40 ... 42 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook