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Switch to Forum Live View What exactly is Armageddon?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:24PM #231
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:50PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:10PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


If Jehovah were 'insensitive' to people, he would not be sending his servants to warn mankind in time to turn to the protection he offers. 




Yikes, that's an extortion line right out of organized crime's playbook.




Except that we don't want anything from you except for your brotherhood and help in turning the Earth back the way God intended for it to be.




Or as the Bolsheviks told the Russians, "Except that we don't want anything from you except for your brotherhood and help in turning the Earth back the way Marx & Engels intended for it to be." The wording changes only by names and dates from one totalitarian system to another.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:35PM #232
older
Posts: 9,166

Hi Chrerbino , the Bolshevics promised and did not keep their promises, They gathered the  harvested crops, sold them to buy  arms, and let the people starve to death,,, abut 50 million for they lost count of the starving. Then china repeated the promises and did the same.


There is a difference in Jehovahs kingdom and the kingdoms of men. I assure you  , Cherebino .. we dont buy arms. And we dont seek prominence in the world. What we do is promote what Jehovah desires.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:50PM #233
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:09PM, Newtonian wrote:


Mr. Jordan - Hi!  Good posts!   However, I am totally unfamiliar with any religion teaching different things privately rather than publicly - does this actually happen in some religions?


I mean, I know this happens in secretive religions, like the Freemasons - but I mean the mainline religions of Christendom?


 



No, this does not happen in mainline churches, nor do I think it's common even in fringe groups (because word ALWAYS gets out, after all).  I think Mr. Jordan merely misunderstood the passage as originally posted.  There is public teaching, then there is private teaching of what the hearer may not have understood from the public message or about which s/he wants a bit more information.  It is no different than a student getting individual help from the teacher when the student wants a clearer understanding or wishes to concentrate on a point barely mentioned in the classroom lecture.  There is no contradiction, there is merely clarification or explanation in greater depth, and perhaps the exploration of a tangent.


Don't JW Elders get special training or teachings that aren't meant for all members of a KH?  Do you think any of that contradicts what's taught to the KH in general?  That's all that was meant by private vs public teaching.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:54PM #234
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:50PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:10PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


If Jehovah were 'insensitive' to people, he would not be sending his servants to warn mankind in time to turn to the protection he offers. 




Yikes, that's an extortion line right out of organized crime's playbook.




Except that we don't want anything from you except for your brotherhood and help in turning the Earth back the way God intended for it to be.



I believe that of general JWs, but your leaders have made it clear that they want our complete submission and obedience.  That's why it's extortion.  YOU want cooperation, THEY want submission.  VERY different things.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:53PM #235
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:54PM, Svetlana wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:50PM, cherubino wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:10PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


If Jehovah were 'insensitive' to people, he would not be sending his servants to warn mankind in time to turn to the protection he offers. 




Yikes, that's an extortion line right out of organized crime's playbook.




Except that we don't want anything from you except for your brotherhood and help in turning the Earth back the way God intended for it to be.



I believe that of general JWs, but your leaders have made it clear that they want our complete submission and obedience.  That's why it's extortion.  YOU want cooperation, THEY want submission.  VERY different things.




Exactly, and that's why Armageddon is the opium of the huddled and oppressed. Once you cut trough the theological comouflage and see the parallels in organizational structure between the millenarianist religious movements and the rise in roughly that same era as the utopian secular ideologies of Fascism and Communism, the similarities in class warfare rhetoric far outweigh the differences.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 9:55PM #236
Regina_Jones
Posts: 134

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Svetlana wrote:

Don't JW Elders get special training or teachings that aren't meant for all members of a KH?  Do you think any of that contradicts what's taught to the KH in general?  That's all that was meant by private vs public teaching.


No, not special training or teachings.  But a book that is consistent with that given to those in positions of authority in other faith communities.  See, as examples:


www.lifeway.com/lwc/files/lwcF_Deacon_Ha...


www.cathedraluniversity.com/pastorsmanua...


I can not speak to how it applies to either of these books, but I suspect it is the same: there are no contradictions in the teachings 'within the walls' and 'from the platform'.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:05PM #237
Svetlana
Posts: 11,286

Apr 12, 2012 -- 9:55PM, Regina_Jones wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Svetlana wrote:

Don't JW Elders get special training or teachings that aren't meant for all members of a KH?  Do you think any of that contradicts what's taught to the KH in general?  That's all that was meant by private vs public teaching.


No, not special training or teachings.  But a book that is consistent with that given to those in positions of authority in other faith communities.  See, as examples:


www.lifeway.com/lwc/files/lwcF_Deacon_Ha...


www.cathedraluniversity.com/pastorsmanua...


I can not speak to how it applies to either of these books, but I suspect it is the same: there are no contradictions in the teachings 'within the walls' and 'from the platform'.



Yes, that's what I meant.  Everyone in any crowd of listeners will be a different level of understanding and growth than his neighbor, so it makes perfect sense that many might need a little help catching up, or might want guidance on how to proceed if they are a bit ahead of the group.  It's EXTRA teaching, but not contradictory.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:54PM #238
Oeste
Posts: 3,338

Apr 12, 2012 -- 2:53PM, mrjordan wrote:


There are times to counsel people privately. I have also seen where a whole congregation has been counseled after a meeting from stage.


What I read was "What they taught privately was principles for pursueing a life after Christ". Why should preaching these principles be private?



Oh, I dunno. Perhaps because the issue is private?



Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:01PM, Newtonian wrote:


Oeste - I was brought up Lutheran, albeit my mom was really Dutch Reformed - and I was not taught by this religion "privately" anything - my mom did teach me things, but this was not sponsored by either religion. 



So if you brought in someone with a substance abuse problem, and this person needed help, you would not counsel the person in private??? What do you do....make a speech from the podium? Or do you tell him to come back next month..."Why, we'll have a special talk that will answer all your questions then!"


Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:01PM, Newtonian wrote:


Also among the many Bible students from various religions whom I have taught the Bible they also never mentioned anything they were taught "privately" by their religion which was different from what they were taught "publicly."



Where did this word "different" pop up in the discussion?


LOL! You're not trying to slip a strawman in there, are you?

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 10:59PM #239
Oeste
Posts: 3,338

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Svetlana wrote:


 No, this does not happen in mainline churches, nor do I think it's common even in fringe groups (because word ALWAYS gets out, after all).  I think Mr. Jordan merely misunderstood the passage as originally posted.  There is public teaching, then there is private teaching of what the hearer may not have understood from the public message or about which s/he wants a bit more information.  It is no different than a student getting individual help from the teacher when the student wants a clearer understanding or wishes to concentrate on a point barely mentioned in the classroom lecture.  There is no contradiction, there is merely clarification or explanation in greater depth, and perhaps the exploration of a tangent.


Don't JW Elders get special training or teachings that aren't meant for all members of a KH?  Do you think any of that contradicts what's taught to the KH in general?  That's all that was meant by private vs public teaching.




Hi Svetlana!


I replied to MrJordan and Newt before I saw your response.


Good post.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 11:30PM #240
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 12, 2012 -- 8:00PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Let it be noted, that anyone who has prayed the 'model prayer' has prayed for Armageddon to come.  The kingdom doesn't arrive quietly, but by 'crushing and putting an end to all other kingdoms.  Dan 2:44


God's 'will on earth' is that all crime, poverty, war, abuse, death be brought to an end, and that is what Armageddon will bring about.  Will some innocent babies die?  So it would appear.  Would it be better for God to leave the situation as it is, where babies die of disease, starvation, neglect, their parents own hands, or in partial-birth abortions which profit the doctors who sell the body parts of the babies, with brains fetching $1000?


Which picture is more dire, the picture where it all ends, or the picture where the hopeless situation just continues on until we either suffer forever, we and our offspring, or we obliterate ourselves?



So are you saying that it's okay for all the millions, if not billions of innocents babies to die...and for them to also be included as being described as 'bird food' and as being rejected by Jehovah forever?


Well, I'm sorry, GTBHS, but there's just seems to be something very wrong and something very sad....about that picture.

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