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Switch to Forum Live View The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the One
3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 2:45PM #1
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

OK, this is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. I can accept that there had occurred a breach between mankind and God because of disobedience, a breach that man alone could not repair. So the fix had to come from God, this being the main reason for the incarnation.

Jesus, working from the *God side* and the *human side*, voluntarily gave his life to repair the breach.

The majority of today's church believes that each individual person must choose to accept what Jesus has done for all, in order to be saved.

But, coming to understand the nature of man for over forty years of study, many, if not most people, are culturally conditioned to not be disposed to accept this narrowly defined means of becoming (re)connected with God. There are many good, moral and honest people, of many different religions and of no religions, who cannot accept this belief, some because it is so narrow. Simone Weil (who I adore) never joined the Catholic Church precisely for this reason (essentially saying, to paraphrase, I could never belong to any club that would exclude some of my closest friends, from being members).

I'm quite sure that God understands the very narrow and limiting box most of us live in, and the very many ways most of us have been conditioned against believing a narrow Biblical definition of how one can come to be saved.

Thus, I have not been disposed to witness to others this means of salvation, since I was a teenager. I am not predisposed to proselytize in any manner. I don't presume to be in any position to judge anyone. I think that if there is any judgement, God judges the intents of the heart and mind, on an individual basis.

Further, likewise, I also believe that one is not necessarily saved by merely repeating a verbal formula, even if the formula is precisely correct.

Now, all that is merely a tiny fraction of what I believe, or suppose (and is a reply to Adelphe's speculation on another thread that she doubts that I believe the actuality of being (able to be) "washed in the blood of Jesus").

And just to add, all that does not make me a universalist, but I do believe that God's "umbrella" is much bigger than today's church supposes. 

sdp                     

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 4:31PM #2
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Before you can testify that Jesus' death on the cross resultred in the salvation of others/whoever-believed-in-him/etc you must be able to explain HOW it was done.  There are many explanations, none of them satisfactory.  Do you have one you can support? 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 4:46PM #3
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 7, 2012 -- 4:31PM, JimRigas wrote:


Before you can testify that Jesus' death on the cross resultred in the salvation of others/whoever-believed-in-him/etc you must be able to explain HOW it was done.  There are many explanations, none of them satisfactory.  Do you have one you can support? 




Keeping it simple, Adam was told, the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. This death was separation from God (the breach).


So, the penalty for sin is death. As God set up the rules, God has to play by his own rules, somebody has to die.


So, Jesus is our substitute. Jesus died in our place.


This is portrayed quite movingly in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, based on the CS Lewis book.


..................


Now, believe it or not, I would gladly die to save another. However, the value of my life only equals one life. Jesus being both man and God, his value is essentially infinite, so his death covers everyone. The whole thing doesn't work unless Jesus is both man and God. He has to be God for the stated reason. He has to be man because God can't die. 


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 5:28PM #4
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

OK, my edit function is not working properly.........so........let's try again.......


The fact that Jesus can die in our place also explains the Trinity.


God has to come in (re)movable parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Why? It's a safety valve. Jesus has to be God in order for his value to cover everybody. He has to be man so he can die. But, if there were no Trinity, if Jesus died, in sin, All of God would have died.


So on the cross when the Father had to separate himself from the Son, Jesus cried out, My God, why have you forsaken me? (Jesus was communicating, to us, here, by quoting OT scripture. He knew exactly what was going on) the separation (removable part) was the safety valve working so death could not touch the Father and the Holy Spirit. If Jesus had sinned he would have stayed in the grave, but Father and Holy Spirit would have been safe. (The agony of Gethsemane was Jesus not being sure if he could finish the whole thing without sinning. If he couldn't finish, he would be lost, and all mankind. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the One).


The resurrection shows that Jesus did not sin, so he himself was not (eternally) subject to death.


Without the Trinity, if Jesus had sinned, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all would have died, zip-zap, all gone. All-n-all, neat feat.


sdp   

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 5:58PM #5
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Very clever.  Of course you will have to find someone who believes in the Adam and Eve story, and in the Trinity.  Somebody like that probably already believes, so he does not need your testimony.  But the little shaky part is where Jesus dies.  Is it Jesus the man who dies?  You allude to this since you say he was  without sin.  But then only a man died, even though it was a sinless one, but still not one to satisfy the requirements you set out at the beginning.  And if Jesus the God died, can man kill God, even if it is only one member of the Trinity?  And in any case since he did not stay dead, it is cheating on God's rules.  And if we are going to allow cheating why didn't God just forgive the sin outright rather than declare Jesus, his own one-third, trump and playing the card?    

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 6:25PM #6
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 7, 2012 -- 5:58PM, JimRigas wrote:


Very clever.  Of course you will have to find someone who believes in the Adam and Eve story,


For a long time I ceased to believe in the Adam and Eve story. The Truth works as allegory and myth. However, I worked it all out so that the Adam and Eve story could be literally true. I always wondered why we have two creation stories in Genesis, chapter one and two. Then it hit me one day. Genesis one gives the story of the evolution of mankind, God getting the physical body just as he wanted it. (If God wants man to freely choose to associate with Himself through love and faith, He can't leave around any objectively verifiably evidence for His existence, thus the necessity for evolution. God specifically doesn't want us to be able to prove His existence). Then, about 50,000 years ago, God got the body just right, then Genesis two begins. God picked out the best two humans, and breathed into them his own Spirit, and Adam and Eve became the first two human with souls. (50,000 years ago, we know from scientific research that mankind had a dramatic leap in intelligence).


 and in the Trinity. 


I just explained the necessity for the Trinity. I've been thinking on that a long time also. Take it or leave it.


Somebody like that probably already believes, so he does not need your testimony.  But the little shaky part is where Jesus dies.  Is it Jesus the man who dies? It doesn't matter how you state it. When the Second Person of the Trinity was born as a human being Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity was forever inseparably and simultaneously man and God. But, yes, having a human body, the human body was subject to death.  You allude to this since you say he was  without sin.  But then only a man died, even though it was a sinless one, but still not one to satisfy the requirements you set out at the beginning. Why not? A man sinned, a man has to die. Requirements fulfilled.  And if Jesus the God died, can man kill God, even if it is only one member of the Trinity? Again, when Jesus was born, man and God were inseparably linked, the two natures were one.  And in any case since he did not stay dead, it is cheating on God's rules. No it wasn't. Jesus died in our place. The fact that he himself didn't sin, made him not-subject to eternal separation from God, eternal death. No cheating. Complete and full compliance with the rules God set up. (Just for the record, while I personally believe in the bodily resurrection, I don't think it's an absolute necessity to believe. Even if the disciples merely saw the spiritual form of Jesus after his death, this is enough to show Jesus survived death).  And if we are going to allow cheating why didn't God just forgive the sin outright rather than declare Jesus, his own one-third, trump and playing the card? There was no cheating.    




 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 6:31PM #7
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,090

Jim


How dare you debunk, in just one fell swoop, "original sin" AND "trinity", and, of course, in the process, sdp's UPG? [#] Cool


MdS


[#] Unsubstantiated/Unverified Personal Gnosis Surprised

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 6:45PM #8
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 7, 2012 -- 6:31PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Jim


How dare you debunk, in just one fell swoop, "original sin" AND "trinity", and, of course, in the process, sdp's UPG? [#] Cool


MdS


[#] Unsubstantiated/Unverified Personal Gnosis Surprised




Yea, write down the date and time, I just started a new denomination Laughing. But no, I mostly used reason...........Wink.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 6:54PM #9
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Apr 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

  Keeping it simple, Adam was told, the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. This death was separation from God (the breach).  So, the penalty for sin is death. As God set up the rules, God has to play by his own rules, somebody has to die.  So, Jesus is our substitute. Jesus died in our place.  This is portrayed quite movingly in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, based on the CS Lewis book.


Now, believe it or not, I would gladly die to save another. However, the value of my life only equals one life. Jesus being both man and God, his value is essentially infinite, so his death covers everyone. The whole thing doesn't work unless Jesus is both man and God. He has to be God for the stated reason. He has to be man because God can't die.  sdp  



In my understanding I don't know about using reason?  Nonetheless, interesting thoughts but it sounds contradictory!  Your other explanation is no clearer to me!  Simply put – I don’t believe the Uncreated can become the created, the Infinite come the finite in any form, and for Jesus to be God that is what would be required.


God caused creation to come into being through His divine Will which to me means creation ‘emanated from’ God in much the same way as those healing rays emanates from the sun giving life to our planet.  Rays carry power from the sun but is not the sun and doesn’t diminish or effect the sun.  It’s but a reflection!  I accept the fact that the Christ Spirit within Jesus, a spirit which emanates from God,  is "essentially infinite" and will last as long as God last.  However, the power which is reflected from Jesus is an ‘emanation from God’ coming through the Holy Spirit (like rays from God) but is not God.   But let me share my understanding of human salvation!


Death becomes a necessary sacrifice for the righteous because of the state of human affairs at the time of that sacrifice, and even more so at the time of each Manifestation’s appearance.  Jesus, as well as all other Messengers of equal stature, caused those in powers at the time, both spiritual and secular society, to be threatened.  It became necessary, in their way of thinking, to be rid of Jesus thereby saving and preserving their way of life and belief system.  While the method of sacrifice may differ, this is not a unique situation but happens to a Manifestation of God at the beginning of each new age in humanity’s spiritual development.  However, unbeknownst to those in power, through their actions of causing the Manifestation of God to sacrifice their all, they helped to open the door for the Holy Spirit to unleash a fresh measure of God’s spiritual energy into the world through the Manifestation’s Revelation.


Jesus’ sacrifice was the price and ransom for all of humanity for that age in which Jesus appeared.  God, through the Holy Spirit (that power which emanates from God), endowed Jesus with the capacity to reflect divine power through a Revelation, consisting of teachings and laws designed for the advancement of that new age in which Jesus appeared.  This is the salvation the world needed, expected, and awaited!  Because of the state of humanity, once Jesus willingly accepted God’s call, He offered His life, a necessary sacrifice, and a fresh supply of spiritual energy was released into the world through His revelation powered by the Holy Spirit.  Those who followed found salvation through the Word made flesh – or the new Revelation through Jesus.  The Return Jesus spoke of is simply a repeat of the appearance of another Manifestation/Comforter/Prophet/Son of God to come, quickening a fresh supply of this spiritual energy released into the world through another Revelation – those things Jesus couldn’t tell humanity because it wasn’t intellectually ready to understand! 


Living in sin – not recognizing the Manifestation and not following His teaching as laid out ... 


For those who wish .....


Info on Resurrection:  bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/res.htm 


Info on Trinity:  bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/trinity.htm 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 9:24PM #10
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Apr 7, 2012 -- 4:31PM, JimRigas wrote:


Before you can testify that Jesus' death on the cross resultred in the salvation of others/whoever-believed-in-him/etc you must be able to explain HOW it was done.  There are many explanations, none of them satisfactory.  Do you have one you can support? 




no you don't


like any other testimonial, all one is qualified to say is that: "it worked for me"

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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