Apr 8, 2012 -- 1:50AM, Jenandew7 wrote:

Apr 7, 2012 -- 10:13PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

In short, it was a journey of a thousand miles that began with one step, not a one step and it was done.

Annie

IOW, you understood absolutely nothing I said.

I apologize.  I actually did, but I was more intent on eating my dinner soon than on what I was saying.  I have not forgotten who you are, either. 

And I just spent an entire hour replying and then my Internet failed.  Some of what I wrote was saved on my clipboard.  Most of the polish was lost and a comment at the top of the post was to say that I was focused on our enmity with God.

I am not ashamed to say that I am universalist in that I believe that God will save us all.  For scripture I would refer to the fact that Jesus is reconciling the world to himself.  I believe Jesus will succeed.  I also believe that it is loving for me to believe this. 

To begin, St. James suggests a word that has played heavily on my mind.  He said we have "enmity" with God. 

And now, because I am exhausted, the part that was on the clipboard is going into this post.  I am not revising it again.  *lol*  I use "we" to refer to all people, all mankind and our nature. 

I must wonder why, once Jesus had given up his life, that a Roman thrust a spear into his side.  What impetus lay behind such an angry act. What was he trying to kill?  What had we all attempted to kill that day (because we continue to attempt to kill it)?  Here was this absolutely innocent man; a man who did only good, who spoke only good, who taught only good.  There were no grounds whatsoever for him to have been put to death, but he offended by his very goodness. 

And then think about us and what we like most to do?  We are always vying against each other for position and in that act, we are confused enough to think that if we put someone else down, they go down the ladder and we go up.   We do this one-upmanship constantly and it never dawns on us that if we do something hateful, it is ourselves that go down that ladder? 

For amusement we must have conflict.  Look at our favorite books and movies, games and pass-times.  Rather than desiring success for everyone, we rather relish the failure of others and even predict it.  We enjoy disaster.  Look at all the focus on the end of the world according to the Mayan calendar.  In politics now, like never before in this country, we are busily demonizing our neighbors because they are on the wrong side.  These are just examples of our hatred of all that is truly good. 

We consider love important, but our love is conditional and we want God's to be like ours.  We have completely revised those requirements many times according to our many theologies.  God should love only us and our dearest friends and should exclude, even brutally murder, all the rest.  We make God who is so good out to be the worst tyrant that could ever be dreamt up.  And we use the good book whenever possible to cast him in this role.

This is all just to show our enmity with God.  I think we take it to new heights with our atonement theories.  Again and again, we blame God.

We are simply asserting our independence like  two year olds.  When God warned Adam not to eat that fruit, Adam did it even though he had been warned that if he did, that day he would surely die.  That story so well reflects our natural proclivity to rebel.  That's the way I see it.  It isn't good for us, but we are determined to continue to try even if what we are doing is hurting us. 

It is not and never has been that God has left us or is not present.  God is always with us even in Sheol.  True saving will occur when we cry out to him in our distress--but we must be willing to be saved.  God isn't the tyrant!   We are our own tyrant and we are keeping ourselves from God.  We reinforce this belief among each other and at the same time we are pretending we are already saved, we have the TRUTH, we are turning a blind eye toward God and we are not accepting our true nature.  We are created in God's likeness and image and that is our nature.  When we turn toward God, that is spiritually, and away from our worldly self, then we will be saved.  "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

I actually did try to respond to you, but it didn't come across that way.  I'm sorry.  We are saved, we are being saved, we have been saved.  No physical entity we refer to as a church is right in all its particulars, all are capable of helping us find the way.  Like you, I don't get the sense it is that limited.  I don't believe that Jesus' work is limited.

Be that as it may, saved is a good Biblical word. Salvation means to be made whole, it is essentially a term related to healing.

I went back and read my post twice to see how anyone could conclude what you have??? I think I was pretty clear...........about what I believe and what the church teaches and about how God actually sees all perspectives...........just read my post a third time......

As well educated as you are, sdp, why is it that you don't know the traditional theology?  I'm speaking early church--because we have gotten a long way from that over these many long centuries.  And why do you think that your theology is more common?  I will admit that those who follow your theology are more outspoken.  *lol*  In essence, what I was trying to say is that the way is easy, the road is long.  As you say, it is not simply in professing it, in saying the right words.  It was easy to mislay the main message.  And the next guy can come along and say, "Of course that was wrong!  I know the TRUTH!"

I think you think I pressed one of your "buttons" which I didn't actually press.......meaning, I don't disagree with your post.......and I'm sorry you have forgotten who I am.............

You mean, you didn't mean to press those buttons?  *chuckling*  Why say all that to say what you intended to say in those well written few paragraphs that were on topic? 

Whatever.............

d

I hope this was more germane to the subject this time and that I gave you food for thought.  It is very focused on Easter and relates to my Lenten contemplations.

Annie

It's cool ...... I read your post and will read it again later. I've always considered that you and I have more similar views of life and the Bible than most others here. ........Even knowing I haven't been around here for a few months, I just felt blasted by your post..........

Easter plans......gotta go........

d

Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 8, 2012 -- 10:25AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

I went back and read your post again (and bumped it). Yea, I guess I misread who you were referring to, but I'm glad I did, and took the opportunity to start this thread.

I concur about your remembering about my view about salvation (nice that you remember and know me so well). However, I also believe that life after death can be rather complicated. I don't believe that heaven and hell is either/or, all or nothing. I believe there are levels appropriate for how we lived our life (for anyone, of any religion or of no religion). I believe what's true in us survives, what's false does not survive. Some people are more true to the self God created them to be. Some people are almost nothing of the self God created them to be (those would be living through, that which is named the name you don't like, so, I won't use it here ).

All this is true whether a person is a Christian believer, or not.

So, some people will look at the "lower" boundary of heaven, from the heaven side, and say, yea, nice, we made it in. Some will look at the boundary (from the non-heaven side) and say, yea, you know, those Christians think they have special privilege in that they crossed that line.

Annie is right (sorry, haven't read your reply yet....will......) salvation is a process, coming to wholeness. Full and complete salvation would be coming to full maturity in who God created us to be. St. Gregory of Nyssa said the process never ends, we can come closer and closer to God, but there will always be a line separating us from God. I concur.

sdp   

I don't dispute much of this.

But, again, I see this emphasis on "life after death", the "other side", and "making it in"--as if it's purely about that post-death, "golden ticket to heaven" notion of salvation (which I thoroughly despise.)

It's not.

It's now.

It's knowing (intimate relationship with) "you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

All the "good, honest, moral[ity]" in the world cannot get you that.

In fact, far from it.

I absolutely agree. In fact, now is all we ever have. We don't understand this. The intimacy comes from being transformed into the likeness of Christ. I only have a few minutes, now.

The point is that the process can occur only in the present moment. In some future heaven, it will be now, then.

But I think most people, Christians, believe the purpose is to save self. The purpose isn't to save who we right-now are, self as we are now, but to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. This is well-described in scripture.

d 

Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:16AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

It's cool ...... I read your post and will read it again later. I've always considered that you and I have more similar views of life and the Bible than most others here. ........Even knowing I haven't been around here for a few months, I just felt blasted by your post..........

Easter plans......gotta go........

d

Please forgive me, sdp.  I love and admire you.  And, yes, I think in most ways we see similarly.  I wouldn't want to ever blast you!

Happy Easter!  Christ is Risen!  Alleluia!

Apr 7, 2012 -- 2:45PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

OK, this is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. I can accept that there had occurred a breach between mankind and God because of disobedience, a breach that man alone could not repair. So the fix had to come from God, this being the main reason for the incarnation.

 

The needs of the many (the Enterprise) outweigh the needs of the few or the One (Kirk's need to save Spock).

Apr 8, 2012 -- 3:53PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Apr 8, 2012 -- 10:46AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

Apr 8, 2012 -- 3:05AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

sdp

Apr 7, 2012 -- 6:45PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

Apr 7, 2012 -- 6:31PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

How dare you [JimRigas] debunk, in just one fell swoop, "original sin" AND "trinity", and, of course, in the process, sdp's UPG? [#] 

[#] Unsubstantiated/Unverified Personal Gnosis

Yea, write down the date and time, I just started a new denomination. But no, I mostly used reason...........

Yea, that is more or less what the historical Gnostics (which, BTW means something "those in the know", the "enlightened ones") said about their fantastic "interpretations" of the Bible, especially of Genesis ...

MdS

I'm just trying to get the big picture...and sharing stuff....same as everybody. If you would like me to preface everything I write by, It is my opinion that.... or some such....sorry. Just stick in the back of your mind all I write is provisional. Ever see the movie Rudy? Good movie. Rudy is trying to get into Notre Dame (his dream is actually to play football for Notre Dame, he's something like about 5'2", maybe 140 lbs or some such, he actually eventually makes the practice squad, and not to spoil the story, and.......true story, good movie....), is going to a nearby Jr. college to up his grades. Talks to a certain Catholic priest about stuff. Father says: In all my study, reading and prayer of over (some such) years, I have come to only two incontrovertible truths. There is a God, and I'm not him. I concur. If that makes me a Gnostic, call me a Gnostic at your pleasure.

sdp

and then Rudy grew up and became a Hobbit

Yep...... Any gals out there want to see their big guy cry, just rent Rudy....... I cried just thinking about the ending on the way to my sister's this afternoon......(well...let's just say a tear came.........).