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Switch to Forum Live View The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the One
3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 6:18PM #41
Utilyan
Posts: 5,897

Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Rgurley4 wrote:



The Needs of the Many (believers?) Outweigh the Needs of the One (unbeliever?)


aka


The TRI-UNE God wants all to be "saved", BUT He loves and protects a single believer (lamb/sheep).


Utilyan #20
God (Jesus the Good Shepherd) would "leave" (temporary diminished protection of) 99 sheep
to "save" (re-establish fellowship) with the lost one. (a believer who has gone astay)


We'll (RCC?) trade the salvation of a hundred saints (saved souls!) for (to allow) God to have a moment with one sinner....WRONG!...Please explain!


We Catholics believe we are the "one true church",   (citation to RCC authority...PLEASE)


All the other religions and faiths are the (God the) Holy Spirit....Huh??  (citation to RCC authority...PLEASE)


Jesus told us (believers) that He'd send us (God the Holy) Spirit, the Comforter...AND He did! On Penetecost!..and He spiritually lives in and guides me!


How about yourself?


Matthew 18: 10-14 (NASB)...Jesus" to His disciples:..."little ones" = lambs = sheep = believers...the Ninety-nine Plus One = 100!
“See that you do not despise one of these "little ones" (innocent children with simple FAITH in God),
for I say to you that their angels ("Guardian Angels?) in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
[For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.] CAUTION: this sentence is not present in the oldest MSS!)
“What do you think? (PARABLE!)
If any man has a hundred sheep (true believers), and one of them has gone astray (sins after salvation),
does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains (for a "minute"!)and go and search for the one that is straying? (from the Will of God!)
If it turns out that he finds it (the straying lamb),
truly I say to you, (you better believe it = UBBI!)
he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these "little ones" perish.(before salvation!)





Salvation is wanting whats best for others.      



We didn't first make the claim of "ONE TRUE CHURCH" last week,    Jesus did for us.  



We're the church they talk about in the bible,  go figure!



The bible is just a real old newspaper,   you read about the church, churchin' .    A football player doesn't scan a newspaper and call it training.




====


1 cor 10 :16   (improved version of verse 17 and 18)


16.The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?


17.No its symbolism its not realley his body or blood.


18. OH!.......... oh! well make sure you buckle up on your donkey ride home.......


====




The Bane of sola scriptura........  I think if this was the only thing posted for a couple of weeks  they might actually read this.....    Its like they say bible is completey true.......except here.


2 Timothy 3


16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



PROFITABLE = HELPS.        PROFITABLE DOES NOT = IS.


Profitable turns a profit.....helps......a plus...... a perk......a boost.....     Helps doctrine.....   oh where is doctrine its helping?


If you, your friend and dog are cold........   its profitable to have a jacket on YOU, the friend and dog. to keep them warm.     But you are not the jacket.



If he would have said all scripture IS doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction.   We would not be in debate.     We would nod our heads and say yes sir you are absolutely correct.


But the reason he didn't say IS...............  IS because IT would be a LIE.



So where is the doctrine if its not the bible?   Where is the reproof if its not the bible?   where is the correction if its not the bible?   where is the INSTRUCTION if its not the bible?



Its over here fellah! with the church.


1 Timothy 3:15


But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.













Please consider the below statement:



If he would have said all scripture IS doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction.   We would not be in debate.     We would nod our heads and say yes sir you are absolutely correct.



Please consider the above observation:


Please pay attention to the word  --> IS

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 9:31PM #42
jlb32168
Posts: 13,397

Apr 7, 2012 -- 10:32PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

I am quite baffled by your reply, jib, on both counts. If the majority of the church disagrees with what I wrote, then the church believes in universal salvation (everybody saved, nobody lost). I just don't see that.


I don’t see how you got from Point “A” to Point “B”.  You believe that Christ died in our place, that is, Christ’s sacrifice was done to appease the Father’s infinite wrath.


I don’t believe in that theology.


Apr 7, 2012 -- 10:32PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

Covering everybody means that anybody can (but not necessarily) be "saved" (IOW, Jesus died for everybody).


I believe that Jesus died to conquer death, but not in some kind of substitutionary atonement for man.  If God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked and was not pleased to receive Isaac as a sacrifice then how could God require the death of His Only-Begotten Son?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 8:48AM #43
Adelphe
Posts: 28,736

Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:28AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I absolutely agree. In fact, now is all we ever have.



Well, not really--there is the concept in Scripture of being "built up", moving to maturity, and making progress.


We don't understand this. The intimacy comes from being transformed into the likeness of Christ.



Well, again, not really.  The intimacy comes from the washing of regeneration and the renewal of and by the Holy Spirit.  Without either, there is no intimate relationship with God.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 9:22AM #44
dio
Posts: 5,039

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:28AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I absolutely agree. In fact, now is all we ever have.



Well, not really--there is the concept in Scripture of being "built up", moving to maturity, and making progress.


We don't understand this. The intimacy comes from being transformed into the likeness of Christ.



Well, again, not really.  The intimacy comes from the washing of regeneration and the renewal of and by the Holy Spirit.  Without either, there is no intimate relationship with God.





Hi Adelphi, I believe in the built up moving to maturity spirituality you mention,  can you refer me to the concept in scripture?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 9:34AM #45
dio
Posts: 5,039

Apr 8, 2012 -- 9:46AM, matica wrote:


This whole thing is just nonsense, here we have an all powerful creator of the universe who can fix anything and his choice of fixing the fall of man is allowing his own son to die, otherwise he's gonna kill everyone. A god that has to resort to death and sacrifice and suffering isn't much of a god at all.




Ya know this is a wrong concept, what you describe is a false straw god. The only thing I've experience from God has been good will, nurturing, providing, and delivering from evil.


The god of death suffering and sacrifice you describe is what Paul called the god of this world; a figment of ignorant, alienated mankind's imagination.


This god, feared and worshiped by many may get you if you don't watch out but it name is the devil.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:32AM #46
lope
Posts: 11,752

Apr 7, 2012 -- 2:45PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


OK, this is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. I can accept that there had occurred a breach between mankind and God because of disobedience, a breach that man alone could not repair. So the fix had to come from God, this being the main reason for the incarnation.

Jesus, working from the *God side* and the *human side*, voluntarily gave his life to repair the breach.

The majority of today's church believes that each individual person must choose to accept what Jesus has done for all, in order to be saved.

But, coming to understand the nature of man for over forty years of study, many, if not most people, are culturally conditioned to not be disposed to accept this narrowly defined means of becoming (re)connected with God. There are many good, moral and honest people, of many different religions and of no religions, who cannot accept this belief, some because it is so narrow. Simone Weil (who I adore) never joined the Catholic Church precisely for this reason (essentially saying, to paraphrase, I could never belong to any club that would exclude some of my closest friends, from being members).

I'm quite sure that God understands the very narrow and limiting box most of us live in, and the very many ways most of us have been conditioned against believing a narrow Biblical definition of how one can come to be saved.

Thus, I have not been disposed to witness to others this means of salvation, since I was a teenager. I am not predisposed to proselytize in any manner. I don't presume to be in any position to judge anyone. I think that if there is any judgement, God judges the intents of the heart and mind, on an individual basis.

Further, likewise, I also believe that one is not necessarily saved by merely repeating a verbal formula, even if the formula is precisely correct.

Now, all that is merely a tiny fraction of what I believe, or suppose (and is a reply to Adelphe's speculation on another thread that she doubts that I believe the actuality of being (able to be) "washed in the blood of Jesus").

And just to add, all that does not make me a universalist, but I do believe that God's "umbrella" is much bigger than today's church supposes. 

sdp                     





Peter said this in Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."


Then in verse 43 Peter said this: "43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”


I conclude that when Peter says believe in him, he is saying "do what is right".  I see nothing in any of that about intellectual understanding of the cross etc.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 7:06PM #47
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:28AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I absolutely agree. In fact, now is all we ever have.



Well, not really--there is the concept in Scripture of being "built up", moving to maturity, and making progress.


What I said doesn't disregard that. Is it not a fact that we can only act in the present moment? Say we are on a journey, let's make it a race. We know there is a bridge two miles up the road, the beginning of the bridge is the finish line. Can you cross the finish line when you are yet two miles away? Can you cross the finish line in your mind? No. You can cross the finish line only when you arrive at it. Will it not be now, at that point? God is always and only accessible in the present moment.


We don't understand this. The intimacy comes from being transformed into the likeness of Christ.



Well, again, not really.  The intimacy comes from the washing of regeneration and the renewal of and by the Holy Spirit.  Without either, there is no intimate relationship with God.


The washing of regeneration is but the beginning of intimacy. From that we are born as babes in Christ, picture a newborn baby, minutes old. Now, you certainly have a relationship with your new baby, but in what sense can you say that your baby has an intimate relationship with you?


Reciprocal intimacy comes from the baby growing up and maturing. Full intimacy comes from full maturity. Doesn't that make sense? Likewise, growing to spiritual maturity is growing up into the fullness of Christ. 


sdp




 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 7:32PM #48
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 9, 2012 -- 9:22AM, dio wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Adelphe wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:28AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


I absolutely agree. In fact, now is all we ever have.



Well, not really--there is the concept in Scripture of being "built up", moving to maturity, and making progress.


We don't understand this. The intimacy comes from being transformed into the likeness of Christ.



Well, again, not really.  The intimacy comes from the washing of regeneration and the renewal of and by the Holy Spirit.  Without either, there is no intimate relationship with God.





Hi Adelphi, I believe in the built up moving to maturity spirituality you mention,  can you refer me to the concept in scripture?




dio ....... Christ has called some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers, for the purpose of equipping Christians for the work of service, so we can aid each other to function together as parts of a body, even the body of Christ in the world. Why? So that we all can attain to the unity of the faith, and to a fuller knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature Christian, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.


As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of (false) doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; by speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up into all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ.......". Ephesians 4:11-15 (some paraphrase, otherwise NASB).


......lay aside the old self....and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth......... Ephesians 4:22-24


Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God.......For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature....... Hebrews 6:1, Heb 5:13,14


And I, brethern, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not able........ 1 Corinthians, 3:1,2


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 9:43AM #49
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,266

stardustpilgrim:  I can accept that there had occurred a breach between mankind and God because of disobedience


God is awfully involved in a species that was breached from Him.  There's always all this talk of separation, and yet all I have to do is crack open the bible, even the OT (before Jesus even shows up) and voila ... there's God running stuff just like He always does.  Where is the separation?


God COULD have vaporized A&E, but He didn't.  True, they finally had to grow up and break a sweat to live, but God provided for them and allowed them to live for centuries.  This is WITHOUT Jesus' execution (even if one argues, inaccurately, that Jesus is Word with God or whatever, that doesn't change the fact the SACRIFICE, as it's called, occurs during a very specific period of time waaaay later).  Why would God continue to care for them if they were so breached?  Why does God have a casual conversation with Cain?  Why does God appear in the bible at all until Jesus "fixes" things?


But, coming to understand the nature of man for over forty years of study, many, if not most people, are culturally conditioned to not be disposed to accept this narrowly defined means of becoming (re)connected with God. There are many good, moral and honest people, of many different religions and of no religions, who cannot accept this belief, some because it is so narrow.


Some simply because it is not justified except a few verses that claim it, but even those claims are not justified by the rest of the text.  The theology is clearly pulled out from someone's ass, because the bible itself, over the course of its plot, says nothing of the kind.


I think some Christians are rather confused.  I do not disbelieve (nowadays) in some of Christian dogma because I wish to be separated from God.  Indeed, it is the people griping to me about separation who seem to have some weird obsession with what is actually an illusion.  No one told them they were naked, as it were.  They imagined that.  It's kind of like saying you were blind and now you see, except people for whom the exectuion has salvation properties assume that the universe didn't exist so long as they couldn't see it, like how a toddler views the peek-a-boo game.  The world is there, whether you see it or not.


This death was separation from God (the breach).


Then why did God wait for this "separation" for such an incredibly long time?


So, the penalty for sin is death.


Everyone dies, though, even those who (arguably) can't sin (like plants).


So, Jesus is our substitute. Jesus died in our place.


And the check bounced three days later, I'm told.


This is portrayed quite movingly in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, based on the CS Lewis book.


Ah, the good ol' "I read it in CS Lewis" nonsense, as if CS Lewis has an authoritative handle on theology.


However, the value of my life only equals one life.


If you stop someone who's about to explode a hundred people and you die in the process, you've actually saved a hundred lives.


If we're going to let fiction dictate our theology (why not?), then according to Captain Jack Sparrow, the principle is settled and now we are just bargaining over the amount (I forgot how much Jack's was worth.  I know, I suck.).


He has to be man because God can't die.


But Jesus didn't stay dead, so where does that put the theology?


It's a safety valve.


And I can say God has back up drives.  It's all pulled out of our rear-ends.


The agony of Gethsemane was Jesus not being sure if he could finish the whole thing without sinning


Where does He say that?


The resurrection shows that Jesus did not sin


So anyone who comes back to life hasn't sinned.  Also, while the bible claims such things about Jesus, it conveniently ignores all the sins Jesus actually committed.  And if Jesus comes back because He hasn't sinned, then the concept He took our sins upon Himself is untrue, for clearly the sins haven't been paid if He gets a refund because His name ain't on the bill.


No it wasn't. Jesus died in our place. The fact that he himself didn't sin, made him not-subject to eternal separation from God, eternal death. No cheating.


It IS cheating.  Davy Jones brings this up when Jack Sparrow (CAPTAIN Jack Sparrow) tries to claim this very logic!  And we all know how true some fiction writer is!


JimRigas:  In its Easter ceremony the public sings a song telling how Jesus arose from the dead sqashing death. 


The problem is still that everyone dies.


matica:  This whole thing is just nonsense, here we have an all powerful creator of the universe who can fix anything and his choice of fixing the fall of man is allowing his own son to die, otherwise he's gonna kill everyone


Oh, it gets better!  AFTER Jesus saved us from sin, God is STILL going to vaporize the globe!


dio:  The god of death suffering and sacrifice you describe is what Paul called the god of this world


What a stupid or powerless God, signing His property over to someone else far less capable of running things!

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 12:31PM #50
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318

Apr 13, 2012 -- 9:43AM, Iwantamotto wrote:


stardustpilgrim:  I can accept that there had occurred a breach between mankind and God because of disobedience


God is awfully involved in a species that was breached from Him.  There's always all this talk of separation, and yet all I have to do is crack open the bible, even the OT (before Jesus even shows up) and voila ... there's God running stuff just like He always does.  Where is the separation?


God COULD have vaporized A&E, but He didn't.  True, they finally had to grow up and break a sweat to live, but God provided for them and allowed them to live for centuries.  This is WITHOUT Jesus' execution (even if one argues, inaccurately, that Jesus is Word with God or whatever, that doesn't change the fact the SACRIFICE, as it's called, occurs during a very specific period of time waaaay later).  Why would God continue to care for them if they were so breached?  Why does God have a casual conversation with Cain?  Why does God appear in the bible at all until Jesus "fixes" things?


But, coming to understand the nature of man for over forty years of study, many, if not most people, are culturally conditioned to not be disposed to accept this narrowly defined means of becoming (re)connected with God. There are many good, moral and honest people, of many different religions and of no religions, who cannot accept this belief, some because it is so narrow.


Some simply because it is not justified except a few verses that claim it, but even those claims are not justified by the rest of the text.  The theology is clearly pulled out from someone's ass, because the bible itself, over the course of its plot, says nothing of the kind.


I think some Christians are rather confused.  I do not disbelieve (nowadays) in some of Christian dogma because I wish to be separated from God.  Indeed, it is the people griping to me about separation who seem to have some weird obsession with what is actually an illusion.  No one told them they were naked, as it were.  They imagined that.  It's kind of like saying you were blind and now you see, except people for whom the exectuion has salvation properties assume that the universe didn't exist so long as they couldn't see it, like how a toddler views the peek-a-boo game.  The world is there, whether you see it or not.


This death was separation from God (the breach).


Then why did God wait for this "separation" for such an incredibly long time?


So, the penalty for sin is death.


Everyone dies, though, even those who (arguably) can't sin (like plants).


So, Jesus is our substitute. Jesus died in our place.


And the check bounced three days later, I'm told.


This is portrayed quite movingly in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, based on the CS Lewis book.


Ah, the good ol' "I read it in CS Lewis" nonsense, as if CS Lewis has an authoritative handle on theology.


However, the value of my life only equals one life.


If you stop someone who's about to explode a hundred people and you die in the process, you've actually saved a hundred lives.


If we're going to let fiction dictate our theology (why not?), then according to Captain Jack Sparrow, the principle is settled and now we are just bargaining over the amount (I forgot how much Jack's was worth.  I know, I suck.).


He has to be man because God can't die.


But Jesus didn't stay dead, so where does that put the theology?


It's a safety valve.


And I can say God has back up drives.  It's all pulled out of our rear-ends.


The agony of Gethsemane was Jesus not being sure if he could finish the whole thing without sinning


Where does He say that?


The resurrection shows that Jesus did not sin


So anyone who comes back to life hasn't sinned.  Also, while the bible claims such things about Jesus, it conveniently ignores all the sins Jesus actually committed.  And if Jesus comes back because He hasn't sinned, then the concept He took our sins upon Himself is untrue, for clearly the sins haven't been paid if He gets a refund because His name ain't on the bill.


No it wasn't. Jesus died in our place. The fact that he himself didn't sin, made him not-subject to eternal separation from God, eternal death. No cheating.


It IS cheating.  Davy Jones brings this up when Jack Sparrow (CAPTAIN Jack Sparrow) tries to claim this very logic!  And we all know how true some fiction writer is!


JimRigas:  In its Easter ceremony the public sings a song telling how Jesus arose from the dead sqashing death. 


The problem is still that everyone dies.


matica:  This whole thing is just nonsense, here we have an all powerful creator of the universe who can fix anything and his choice of fixing the fall of man is allowing his own son to die, otherwise he's gonna kill everyone


Oh, it gets better!  AFTER Jesus saved us from sin, God is STILL going to vaporize the globe!


dio:  The god of death suffering and sacrifice you describe is what Paul called the god of this world


What a stupid or powerless God, signing His property over to someone else far less capable of running things!




Iwantamotto, think spiritual death (our being separated from God does not constitute an obstacle for Him), and you can clear a lot of those questions up.


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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