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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 7:26PM #61
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Jane:


How come, that Jews are usually so proud of Freud, Einstein etc. but by the same token exclude Jesus?



As ffb posted, you are experiencing a small, somewhat skewed, sample of Jews here on beliefnet. Other than the Jews here, most Jews know little of the Jesus of the Gospels. What  they know all too well is the history that surrounds the Jesus of the Gospels, and that history has not been a healthy one for Jews. Because of the 2,000 year old contentious history, Jews will be dismissive of a Jewish Jesus whom they cannot know except from the Gospels which may themselves reveal little of the historic Jewish Jesus.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 8:51PM #62
ffb
Posts: 2,168

Apr 20, 2012 -- 7:26PM, howiedds wrote:

Jane:


How come, that Jews are usually so proud of Freud, Einstein etc. but by the same token exclude Jesus?



As ffb posted, you are experiencing a small, somewhat skewed, sample of Jews here on beliefnet. Other than the Jews here, most Jews know little of the Jesus of the Gospels. What  they know all too well is the history that surrounds the Jesus of the Gospels, and that history has not been a healthy one for Jews. Because of the 2,000 year old contentious history, Jews will be dismissive of a Jewish Jesus whom they cannot know except from the Gospels which may themselves reveal little of the historic Jewish Jesus.


Ironically, it might be that Jews are proud of Einstein and Freud because of their success and contribution to the larger world despite the results of Jesus' life and influences which led to the oppression of Jews.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 9:10PM #63
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Apr 21, 2012 -- 8:51PM, ffb wrote:

Apr 20, 2012 -- 7:26PM, howiedds wrote:


Jane:


How come, that Jews are usually so proud of Freud, Einstein etc. but by the same token exclude Jesus?



As ffb posted, you are experiencing a small, somewhat skewed, sample of Jews here on beliefnet. Other than the Jews here, most Jews know little of the Jesus of the Gospels. What  they know all too well is the history that surrounds the Jesus of the Gospels, and that history has not been a healthy one for Jews. Because of the 2,000 year old contentious history, Jews will be dismissive of a Jewish Jesus whom they cannot know except from the Gospels which may themselves reveal little of the historic Jewish Jesus.




Ironically, it might be that Jews are proud of Einstein and Freud because of their success and contribution to the larger world despite the results of Jesus' life and influences which led to the oppression of Jews.




Although not Jewish, I was thinking something of the kind.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:07AM #64
vra
Posts: 6,403

I think there's another element that should be added and that is that various Christians and Christian groups abandoned what Jesus appears to have taught in the area of not using deadly violence.  How many Christian groups, for example, spoke out against our attack on Iraq that killed and displaced a great many civilians (there were some who did, btw)?  Nor did I hear any great outcry from the Jewish community either.


Probably more often than not, the Jewish anger is more towards the shortcomings of various churches than with Jesus, but there's also Christian anger against some of these elements as well.  However, as Jews, we gotta be careful about throwing stones at others because we definitely have our shortcomings as well.   


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 12:47PM #65
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Vra:


I think there's another element that should be added and that is that various Christians and Christian groups abandoned what Jesus appears to have taught in the area of not using deadly violence.  How many Christian groups, for example, spoke out against our attack on Iraq that killed and displaced a great many civilians (there were some who did, btw)?  Nor did I hear any great outcry from the Jewish community either.


Probably more often than not, the Jewish anger is more towards the shortcomings of various churches than with Jesus, but there's also Christian anger against some of these elements as well.  However, as Jews, we gotta be careful about throwing stones at others because we definitely have our shortcomings as well.  



Hey Buddy, a belated joyous Passover and Easter to you and yours. I hope all are well.


I didn't mean to come off as "holier than thou." They've got their jerks and we have ours. I was specifically answering the opening post. The contentious history generates a knee jerk response among Jews when they hear the name "Jesus," a response that is not favorable and keeps us from "claiming" Jesus as a Jew. You, I, and the others here are more familiar with what it is claimed that he said and recognize it as Jewish, but we also know that there is a discomfort among our people with getting too cozy with the person of Jesus. I think that discomfort has every thing to do with the peripheral history that surrounds Jesus and very little to do with what he is alleged to have said.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 1:13PM #66
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 22, 2012 -- 11:07AM, vra wrote:


I think there's another element that should be added and that is that various Christians and Christian groups abandoned what Jesus appears to have taught in the area of not using deadly violence.  How many Christian groups, for example, spoke out against our attack on Iraq that killed and displaced a great many civilians (there were some who did, btw)?  Nor did I hear any great outcry from the Jewish community either.



Quite a lot of Christian groups opposed the Iraq War, up to and including Pope John Paul II himself.


Many Christian groups that did endorse the war, however, did so partly in the name of defending Israel.


Regardless, the Christian response to political power is muddy because Jesus and the original Christians were a subaltern people subject to and victimized by imperial power. Individuals within the Church(es) have acknowledged the disconnect between Christians exercising imperial power when it was imperial power that crucified Christ, but faith gets messy when one attempts to apply it in the real world. Jews as well have had an exceptionally difficult time exercising state and military power.


When sincere Christians found themselves wielding power, they need examples to guide them how to use it. Since the New Testament offered very little pracitcal examples for the reason I cited above, it appears that many turned to the Old Testament. Anyone who has studied the Hebrew Scriptures is aware that ruling authorities in Israel did not shy away from deadly violence, and only rarely incurred divine wrath for their actions.


Probably more often than not, the Jewish anger is more towards the shortcomings of various churches than with Jesus, but there's also Christian anger against some of these elements as well.  However, as Jews, we gotta be careful about throwing stones at others because we definitely have our shortcomings as well. 



Well said. I have long been uncomfortable with how easily responses to or critique of Christian beliefs becomes an all-out trashing of the religion and its purported founder. I understand that Jews have centuries of justification for feeling resentful of their treatment at Christian hands and that Christian authorities have demonized and mock Jewish beliefs and rituals mercilessly. That is all very human and understandable, but that doesn't make it right.



 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 3:52PM #67
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 22, 2012 -- 12:47PM, howiedds wrote:


Vra:


I think there's another element that should be added and that is that various Christians and Christian groups abandoned what Jesus appears to have taught in the area of not using deadly violence.  How many Christian groups, for example, spoke out against our attack on Iraq that killed and displaced a great many civilians (there were some who did, btw)?  Nor did I hear any great outcry from the Jewish community either.


Probably more often than not, the Jewish anger is more towards the shortcomings of various churches than with Jesus, but there's also Christian anger against some of these elements as well.  However, as Jews, we gotta be careful about throwing stones at others because we definitely have our shortcomings as well.  



Hey Buddy, a belated joyous Passover and Easter to you and yours. I hope all are well.


I didn't mean to come off as "holier than thou." They've got their jerks and we have ours. I was specifically answering the opening post. The contentious history generates a knee jerk response among Jews when they hear the name "Jesus," a response that is not favorable and keeps us from "claiming" Jesus as a Jew. You, I, and the others here are more familiar with what it is claimed that he said and recognize it as Jewish, but we also know that there is a discomfort among our people with getting too cozy with the person of Jesus. I think that discomfort has every thing to do with the peripheral history that surrounds Jesus and very little to do with what he is alleged to have said.





Yo, Howie, it's always nice hearing from you.  Yes, we had a very nice Pesach, and I'm so proud of my two granddaughters with their ability to read Hebrew to make up for their Nonu's ("Grampa's" in Italian) shortcoming.  Hopefully, your's was as nice as well.  BTW, I meant to write you a short while ago in terms of how close the storms in your area got, but I forgot-- another senior moment.  So, ...?


As far as the above is concerned, I think you know that I'm in full agreement, but I certainly didn't believe you were "holier than Thou" because I know you too well. ;) 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 4:22PM #68
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 22, 2012 -- 1:13PM, nieciedo wrote:


Quite a lot of Christian groups opposed the Iraq War, up to and including Pope John Paul II himself.


Many Christian groups that did endorse the war, however, did so partly in the name of defending Israel.



Exactly.  Where we tend to find the divide is that the RCC, some liberal Protestants, and the "peace churches" opposed taking such action in Iraq, but most of the fundamentalist Protestant churches did.  This latter group has increasingly linked patriotism to their religious beliefs.


When sincere Christians found themselves wielding power, they need examples to guide them how to use it. Since the New Testament offered very little pracitcal examples for the reason I cited above, it appears that many turned to the Old Testament. Anyone who has studied the Hebrew Scriptures is aware that ruling authorities in Israel did not shy away from deadly violence, and only rarely incurred divine wrath for their actions.




Where there is an exception, however, is some of the statements attributed to Jesus in the gospels, such as "turn the other cheek", "be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves", etc.  In the pre-Constantine church, members of "the Way" were not allowed to get involved in military matters (if my memory is correct, an allowance was made in the latter half of the 2nd century whereas a congregant could be in the military for police work but not war-- maybe Howie can chime in on this).


By the time we get to Aquinas, there needed to be some sort of guidelines since warfare was all too common and increasingly brutal in Europe, which led to his "Just-War Theory" that became the model for the Catholic Church, even though it was often ignored when push came to shove.  Protestantism, with the exception of the peace churches, spread at least partially through the use of war as we saw the wars of religion plague Europe for centuries and, as you say above, they typically used the "O.T." as their model.     

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 5:06PM #69
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Vra:


I meant to write you a short while ago in terms of how close the storms in your area got, but I forgot-- another senior moment.  So, ...?


They were really close. The tornado that did the most damage and was all over the national news was 20 miles away and had no direct affect on me and mine. There was another smaller one that did some damage, but it was overshadowed by news of the big one. That smaller one was only 5 miles away from our home and 8 miles from my office. It was very scary.


I also agree with Nieciedo's


Well said. I have long been uncomfortable with how easily responses to or critique of Christian beliefs becomes an all-out trashing of the religion and its purported founder. I understand that Jews have centuries of justification for feeling resentful of their treatment at Christian hands and that Christian authorities have demonized and mock Jewish beliefs and rituals mercilessly. That is all very human and understandable, but that doesn't make it right.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 11:45AM #70
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 22, 2012 -- 5:06PM, howiedds wrote:



They were really close. The tornado that did the most damage and was all over the national news was 20 miles away and had no direct affect on me and mine. There was another smaller one that did some damage, but it was overshadowed by news of the big one. That smaller one was only 5 miles away from our home and 8 miles from my office. It was very scary.





Ya, I was following it on the news wondering about you.  I'm pleased it missed you guys but unfortunately it did quite a bit of damage down there, I understand. 


We had some that went through this area about three weeks ago but they went south of us and, fortunately, no one was killed or seriously injured.  BTW, on that day, I received a weather-radio that I ordered through Amazon.com, and that thing went off about every half hour or less throughout the evening hours because of all the gnarly storms we had in this area.  Glad I got it though. 

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