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Switch to Forum Live View Jesus- Jew or Christian?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:48PM #21
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,907

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:45PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:35PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


... Jews owe a lot to both the Christians and the Muslims for making Moses a respected household name everywhere in the world.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit




BS"D


Thanks for the sentiment.  But I for one would rather that Christians and Moslems never even mentioned Moses and just left the Jewish people alone.




It's a free world, bro. ;) I thank YHVH/ALLAH/GOD that there's no legislation on who can or cannot mention Moses. I also thank Him for the fact that the final word on who Moses, Jesus and Muhammad really were does not belong to Jews, Christians or Muslims respectively.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:49PM #22
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:39PM, Bunsinspace wrote:



BS"D


Yep and they all wax very poetic.  Just nothing of any substance there in any one of them.  Also, the issue of whether Jesus ever really existed never comes up.   To me, this is just a fluff piece. Nice and possibly useful social interaction and respect but zero content.




I agree Buns. I really doubt there ever was a Jesus. Maybe several people that became through literature and time  a  single figure.But even if he did, I believe him nothing more then a human being. but I really doubt he existed.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:53PM #23
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


...


Nieciedo is right. Only a minority among serious historians seriously question the actual historical existence of Moses and Jesus. ....




BS"D


With respect to both you and Nieciedo, it is ahistorical to claim the existence of a real flesh-and-blood person in the absence of credible evidence.  The only historicity of Moses and Jesus exists in the perpetuation of the stories about them by their respective adherents.  That is the what is unquestioned.  The fact that any historian would profer the flesh-and-blood existence of any historical figure in the absence of solid verifiable evidence is an absurd contention IMHO. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:59PM #24
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,907

Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


Apr 10, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


...


Nieciedo is right. Only a minority among serious historians seriously question the actual historical existence of Moses and Jesus. ....




BS"D


With respect to both you and Nieciedo, it is ahistorical to claim the existence of a real flesh-and-blood person in the absence of credible evidence.  The only historicity of Moses and Jesus exists in the perpetuation of the stories about them by their respective adherents.  That is the what is unquestioned.  The fact that any historian would profer the flesh-and-blood existence of any historical figure in the absence of solid verifiable evidence is an absurd contention IMHO. 




To claim that they belong to the same category of fantasy figures as Zeus and Ra also lacks solid verifiable evidence. There are significant differences in their accounts which scholars have identified. However, the most fantastic accounts of their lives can indeed be parallelled with Perseus and Child Krishna (the latter of which boasts a veritably Avatar-like deep blue complexion).

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:36PM #25
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,272

frankly, Scarlett . . .


In truth, Jesus is a non-entity for Judaism, as are Mohammed, John Smith, L. Ron Hubbard or any of the others who claimed to be prophets, saviors, messiahs, etc... (or had others claim such a status on their behalf). I am often offended at the manner in which new religious traditions adopt, adapt and alter Jewish historical figures for their own purposes. However, as Lilwabbit has said, there is not much I can do about that. The one thing I can do is to continually explain to the adopters that Jews do not have to follow the "prophets, saviors and messiahs" of other traditions nor do we have to follow the adapted and altered views of others about our Patriarchs, Matriarchs and other historical, cultural, and/or religious figures.



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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 2:46PM #26
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 10, 2012 -- 1:36PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


frankly, Scarlett . . .


In truth, Jesus is a non-entity for Judaism, as are Mohammed, John Smith, L. Ron Hubbard or any of the others who claimed to be prophets, saviors, messiahs, etc... (or had others claim such a status on their behalf). I am often offended at the manner in which new religious traditions adopt, adapt and alter Jewish historical figures for their own purposes. However, as Lilwabbit has said, there is not much I can do about that. The one thing I can do is to continually explain to the adopters that Jews do not have to follow the "prophets, saviors and messiahs" of other traditions nor do we have to follow the adapted and altered views of others about our Patriarchs, Matriarchs and other historical, cultural, and/or religious figures.






Bolding mine. That is something I can not understand, why others do not understand. Why anyone tries to force their religious figures into someone else's religion.


A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 2:56PM #27
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,907

Apr 10, 2012 -- 1:36PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


frankly, Scarlett . . .


In truth, Jesus is a non-entity for Judaism, as are Mohammed, John Smith, L. Ron Hubbard or any of the others who claimed to be prophets, saviors, messiahs, etc... (or had others claim such a status on their behalf). I am often offended at the manner in which new religious traditions adopt, adapt and alter Jewish historical figures for their own purposes. However, as Lilwabbit has said, there is not much I can do about that. The one thing I can do is to continually explain to the adopters that Jews do not have to follow the "prophets, saviors and messiahs" of other traditions nor do we have to follow the adapted and altered views of others about our Patriarchs, Matriarchs and other historical, cultural, and/or religious figures.





Very true. Just as the gentiles don't have to accept that being a Jew is a magic formula for being an unbiased and objective scholar on Moses and the future mashiah. Neither is being a Christian a magic formula for scholarship on Jesus nor being an American a ticket to objective expertise on the founding fathers. The irony is that both the Jews and the Christians (and the Muslims for that matter) have posthumously claimed a copyright on Moses or Jesus, respectively, as if these ancient men were their private property. All rights to pronounce anything truthful on them are unilaterally reserved.


It's like a diehard Red Sox fan claiming to have an expert opinion on the best team in Major League Baseball and feeling offended when a Yankees supporter boldly expresses a differing opinion on their precious team.


"I mean, damn." (quoting Will Smith from the original Men in Black)

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 3:41PM #28
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

I really don't understand the people who insist that Jesus wasn't a real historical person.


Acknowledging that there was a Jesus who was the basis for the Christian stories does not equal accepting that all or any of those fantastical stories are necessarily even true.


There are even Christians who don't believe in the myths and legends that accrued to him.


Then there is the question of evidence.


Just what sort of evidence does one expect there to be? There were no newspapers, there was no Internet, there was no civil or religious bureaucracy that kept files and records on everyone. Also, it was 2,000 years ago. Moreover, the region where Jesus lived and died ended up convulsed with not one but 2 nasty and extremely destructive wars within a hundred years or so of his time.


I know that I had great-grandparents that lived in Poland 100 years ago. I know this because 1) I exist and 2) I know that my grandfather came to the US from Poland in 1905. There were church and state bureaucracies in Poland that kept records of people. However, when my aunt went to Poland in the late 1940s, she was not able to find any records of any family members, anywhere, largely because the most destructive conflict in human history rolled through Poland not too long before. Yet, the fact that I exist means that my great-grandparents must have existed - but I know nothing about them, not even their names.


Within a few decades after Jesus is reported to have died, a new religious movement had cropped up out of nowhere. Enough people claimed to have known this guy and told other people about him and spread the stories to really far flung places. Communications weren't great, but the Mediterranean basin was more interconnected during the Pax Romana than at any time prior to the modern era. People curious about this new religion they have been told about had the opportunity to confer with eye-witnesses. Hundreds of biographies of this guy were written by various authors in communities throughout the Empire that agreed on most of the general broad details (while differing WILDLY on the fantastical and miraculous stuff). 


It seems to me to require a greater leap of faith to say that a Jesus-prototype never existed than to say that there probably was someone on whom the legends and myths were based. It's the same with Siddharta Gautama. Probably all the stories about him are fabrications or poetic license taken with fragments of unverifiable  traditions but still, SOMEHOW had to get Buddhism started. There is ZERO evidence that Abraham or Moses ever existed, and scanty evidence about David, yet each of the characters reflect an understanding of a historical role that had to have been played by somebody.  

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 4:23PM #29
vra
Posts: 6,403

As Joseph Campbell was fond of saying, "the myth became the reality".  IOW, regardless of what Jesus may or may not have been, or even whether he even existed at all, it essentially becomes a moot point to a large extent since many people have accepted him and acted accordingly, much like we have done with Moses.


My "belief" on this: whatever it was, was-- and I'll leave it at that. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 4:43PM #30
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,272

Lilwabbit


Objective or not, if you want to know about Moshe, ask Jews; if you want to know about Jesus, ask Christians; if you want to know about Buddha, ask Buddhists; if you want to know about Mohammed, ask Muslims, etc.. All of these figures only have actual and authentic relevance and meaning within their religious traditions.

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