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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:39AM #131
LeahOne
Posts: 15,735

Jun 11, 2012 -- 3:39AM, Kingdom357 wrote:


Hmmm how do I prostlize Jewish teachings to Jews on a Jewish forum.  Evertything Yeshua taught was Jewish from Hebrew teachings, if you can't recognize them perhaps you need to get into scripture more.





Kingdom, the problem is not that you are 'pushing Jewish teachings':  the problem is that you are pushing them *as recorded in sources which are not Jewish Scripture but someone else's*.  You are promoting these 'teachings' withOUT sourcing them in Torah - and that is simply not acceptable.


Now *why* you keep trying to do this, I have no idea.  You do not seem to be very aware of the actual timelines developed by the careful efforts of thousands of Jewish scholars through the centuries.  You have shown only ignorance of the works of Hillel and Maimonides, which amounts to nothing less than ignorance of mainstream Jewish scholarship for the past two thousand years.


Instead of good Jewish scholars, you promote to us this Greek 'stuff' which purports to be written by four 'Apostles' of this Yehoshua.  No evidence exists to confirm that these people as 4 individual writers actually existed AND were 'Jewish' (Luke was not!) AND wrote the entirety of the 'gospel' attributed to them. 


These accounts misquote Torah, and make some very nonsensical and ignorant statements regarding Judaism and Jews.  And they eventually degenerate into anti-Judaism and anti-Jewish accusations. 


The 'world view' of the entire NT is NOT Jewish:  it presumes that there is an evil supernatural entity.  It further alleges that Judaism is NOT a complete and functional means to connect with our Creator.   


We've been through all of this before, Kingdom.  Several times.  The NT is NOT written by people practicing Judaism, living in Judea, with a Jewish world view. QED.


That you keep insisting the NT has anything valid to say to us Jews, is a demonstration of your profound degree of ignorance of actual Judaism and its teachings.    Since others far more qualified and patient than am I have sought numerous times to alleviate that ignorance of yours and not succeeded - I reluctantly conclude that your ignorance is deliberate and cannot be remedied against your will.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:58AM #132
LeahOne
Posts: 15,735

Per my last paragraph - FFB is one of those more educated and more patient Jewish posters I've referred to. 


I wish my words were half as gracious and enlightening as his!  : ))  Yasher Koach!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:33AM #133
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,761

Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:13AM, ffb wrote:


If you don't wish to think of it as proselytizing, then that's fine, but think of it as walking into an American court and quoting Benedict Arnold because he was, in his own way, "American." [please excuse the analogy's weakness -- this is the first thing that popped into my mind; I may just be hungry.]




Not a bad analogy. Another anology, perhaps more understandable to your other guest here, would be walking into a church and declaring that Muhammad is a Messenger of God to succeed Jesus because the Qur'án clearly says so.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 1:32PM #134
river8101
Posts: 5,500

Good answer Lilwabbit.  I hope she chews on that a while.  Christians such as Kingdom believe that our Bible, the TaNaKh is the OLD Testament, and her bible, the one with Jesus in it, is the NEW Testament and therefore it's revelation.


Seems she cannot get it through her head that as Jews, we only accept the original part,  the TaNaKh, but not the 2nd part, the NT.   Jews believe the first part was written for Jews, by Jews, in the Hebrew language, and the 2nd part by non Jews, in the Greek language. Therefore, to us, the NT has nothing to do with Jews even though it mentions us, but mainly in a dark and destructive way. 


This attitude in the NT set Jews in a frightening place in the Greco-Roman world, as the Greek stories were eventually spread all around the Mediterranean world and far beyond by Roman soldiers.  The Roman Christian Church grew in power everywhere. Pagans and Jews were forced to either accept the Christian story or become outcasts or killed.  Eventually most European pagans did assimilate Christian stories into their pagan stories, as there were similarities.  Anyway it was safer than fighting the powerful Roman soldiers who took their land and often their lives.  Most Jews rejected it all together and suffered badly for it. Even some Jews in Spain who had lived there peacefully for hundreds of years accepted rather than be evicted from their homes, however, Christian Spain didn't trust those Jews and called them Marranos - pigs.  Eventually Jews living in Christian Europe were lucky to survive at all even in the 20th century. 

Moderated by Merope on Jun 12, 2012 - 09:18PM
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:28PM #135
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

So now I have to get a Hebrew scripture?  The Bible is the only word of God, whatever source they come from. 

Moderated by Merope on Jun 12, 2012 - 09:19PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:27PM #136
LeahOne
Posts: 15,735

Jun 12, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Kingdom357 wrote:


So now I have to get a Hebrew scripture? 


No, Kingdom - we are just explaining that the Hebrew Bible is NOT the same as your Christian editions, as we have every other time you pretend not to know this.


If you bothered to Google the words 'Talmud' and 'Mishnah', you would have a chance to learn your mistake there.


There is no 'The Bible':  there is a Tanakh, a Protestant 'Bible', and a Catholic 'Bible'.  In Judaism, the ONLY 'Bible' is the Tanakh.  Again, this has all been explained to you many times, Kingdom.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 1:23AM #137
Cooper
Posts: 400
Kingdom,

The Tanakh is the Jewish scripture.  We require nothing else.  We don't even say that you require it.  Why keep insisting that we need someone elses scripture?  G-d gave us what he wanted us to know and do. 

I will have more to say soon.  I'm flying to Israel tomorrow.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 2:09AM #138
LeahOne
Posts: 15,735

Cooper, for gezunterhait!  : ))  Have a great time 'back home'......

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:31AM #139
river8101
Posts: 5,500

Lucky you!!! 


P.S. I think Kingdom should check out "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis.  Btw, as you all know C.S. Lewis was a devout Christian.  One of my favorites, and a favorite in the store.


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 7:49PM #140
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

Torah  - cf. Judaism 101



 



Moderated by Bunsinspace on Jun 16, 2012 - 10:42PM
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