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Switch to Forum Live View Jesus- Jew or Christian?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 2:12PM #41
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

VRA it would be worth a new thread, and your points are spot on, IMHO

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 2:17PM #42
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 11, 2012 -- 2:12PM, mainecaptain wrote:


VRA it would be worth a new thread, and your points are spot on, IMHO





Thanks for your response,mc, so I'll start the thread right now, changing some of the language slightly.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 9:50PM #43
Pam34
Posts: 2,653

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:17AM, nieciedo wrote:


From the period that Moses is supposed to have lived, we are lucky that we even have the mythologized legends of the Torah to go on. But that's the really the only kind of "evidence" that you can rely upon for most of antiquity.


So, scholars take the received texts and traditions about this purported historical character and study them objectively and attempt to determine what, if any, truth there is behind the sources.


The names are the most interesting thing about this situation. Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam are not Hebrew or Canaanite names. They are Egyptian. According to the mythic biography in the Torah, it is not unusual that Mosheh might have an Egyptian name since he was allegedly adopted by Pharaoh's daughter. Why, however, would his purported brother and sister have Egyptian names, too?


In textual study, a handy rule is that if something is incongruous or weird relative to the surrounding context, it is all the more likely to be true because successive generations of tradents would be likely to smooth over inconsistencies unless the exceptional details were believed to be of suffficient importance to be maintained. So, why do all three purported siblings have Egyptian names? It's an interesting question.





I don't find that a 'problem' at all, Dan. The Hebrews (whatever percentage of them) are supposed to have lived in Egypt for 200 to 400 years at least. It would be more of a surprise if some of them DIDN'T have 'Egyptian names'. I see the Egyptian names of the prominant Levites (Moses, Aaron, Miriam, Pinchas) to more CORROBORATIVE of the Exodus than otherwise (else why, when escaping Egypt, go to 'Canaan'? Why not head somewhere else? Unless you had a tradition that that's where you came from originally).



Besides, how do you explain my good friend (and born Jew) with a fine old traditional name: Stuart Bruce Goldstein?



You think living in the US for a couple or three generations might have something to do with that?


(or being really good friends with the local chapter of Scottish ex-pats, maybe)





Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 12:15AM #44
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,917

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:26AM, nieciedo wrote:


...
Why do you believe in this thing called "The Jewish people?"


 




BS"D


Overwhelming evidence coupled with with face-to-face verifiable confirmation.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 12:21AM #45
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,917

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:25AM, nieciedo wrote:


...


Really? There were Roman newspapers and Jewish blogs that would have left behind records of this fellow - one of the MANY crucified under Pontius Pilate - who did not really become historically significant until after his death? Enough to have survived the convulsions of the Jewish War and Bar Kochba's Revolt? Wow.




BS"D


You are seriously suggesting that since we have no modern information-age artifacts of ancient Rome that all of our knowledge of Roman history and Roman culture was created ex-cathedra?  Please!


 


Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:25AM, nieciedo wrote:


Wow. Buns misses the point again. What a surprise. The question is "Was there a person Jesus who was the founder and central figure of a religious movement that became Christianity?" not "What this Jesus the incarnate Son of God and Savior of humanity?" ....





Wow.  Once again Nieciedo fails to read the thread before he posts.  The OP was satisfied with my response.  Go back and read the entire thread next time.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 2:37PM #46
JaneB
Posts: 11

Hi guys, thanks for your answers. It was an amusing read.


Although my original question was changed and not really discussed I think that I got a kind of answer.


The message from your posts tells me that Jews are not interested in Jesus. Even when asked, they prefer to question his actual existence (which is not really the issue in modern New Testament research anymore. The evidence for him is quite strong). Interestingly, the position of the Jewish posts seems to be very defensive. Why is that?


Shame that Christians didnt answer so I´d have known whether they find the idea of Jesus-Jew offensive. 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 2:47PM #47
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,981

Jane


Basically, the answer is and always has been: Jesus is irrelevant.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:10PM #48
ffb
Posts: 2,184

Apr 19, 2012 -- 2:37PM, JaneB wrote:

Hi guys, thanks for your answers. It was an amusing read.


Although my original question was changed and not really discussed I think that I got a kind of answer.


The message from your posts tells me that Jews are not interested in Jesus. Even when asked, they prefer to question his actual existence (which is not really the issue in modern New Testament research anymore. The evidence for him is quite strong). Interestingly, the position of the Jewish posts seems to be very defensive. Why is that?


Shame that Christians didnt answer so I´d have known whether they find the idea of Jesus-Jew offensive. 



Two points --


1. I don't think it is fair to say "they prefer to question his actual existence". Your limited sample of people who are on here is composed of people who have the time and inclination to be on here and have probably had to deal with the challenges and claims to the invalidity of Judaism. One aspect which comes up then is Jesus' historicity because his theological relevance is simply a non-starter. So there is no "preference" and this group is not a representative sample of "all Jews".


2. Not that many Christians would answer because this isn't a multi-faith board. Not that Christians can't answer here but they might not be checking this board for new questions and threads. I'm sure there are many interesting discussions on boards that I don't check. Maybe of you post a parallel question either on Christian boards or on a multi-faith discussion board, you'll have more success.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:16PM #49
JaneB
Posts: 11

Apr 19, 2012 -- 2:47PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Jane


Basically, the answer is and always has been: Jesus is irrelevant.



Well, that is not true for all Jews. Some have attempted to reclaim him and this is what Im interested in. How come, that Jews are usually so proud of Freud, Einstein etc. but by the same token exclude Jesus? I find it a bit imbalanced...


Someone posted above that he was "a more important /Jew/ than any other". What is your take on this?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 3:21PM #50
JaneB
Posts: 11

Apr 19, 2012 -- 3:10PM, ffb wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 2:37PM, JaneB wrote:

Hi guys, thanks for your answers. It was an amusing read.


Although my original question was changed and not really discussed I think that I got a kind of answer.


The message from your posts tells me that Jews are not interested in Jesus. Even when asked, they prefer to question his actual existence (which is not really the issue in modern New Testament research anymore. The evidence for him is quite strong). Interestingly, the position of the Jewish posts seems to be very defensive. Why is that?


Shame that Christians didnt answer so I´d have known whether they find the idea of Jesus-Jew offensive. 



Two points --


1. I don't think it is fair to say "they prefer to question his actual existence". Your limited sample of people who are on here is composed of people who have the time and inclination to be on here and have probably had to deal with the challenges and claims to the invalidity of Judaism. One aspect which comes up then is Jesus' historicity because his theological relevance is simply a non-starter. So there is no "preference" and this group is not a representative sample of "all Jews".


2. Not that many Christians would answer because this isn't a multi-faith board. Not that Christians can't answer here but they might not be checking this board for new questions and threads. I'm sure there are many interesting discussions on boards that I don't check. Maybe of you post a parallel question either on Christian boards or on a multi-faith discussion board, you'll have more success.


Absolutely ffb. By no means this is a representative group and I do reflect it. I just summed up (largely for myself) the whole discussion. I found it quite interesting.


Thanks for the suggestion to post it also smwh else. Yes, I did so, but it did not go far. It was even deleted in one group!!! (Perhaps a too offensive question...?)

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