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Switch to Forum Live View Hebrews accepting people from other nations
3 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 3:20PM #1
Dudette
Posts: 137
Hello everyone!

I would like your help in better understanding how sometimes Hebrews were forbidden to "mix" with others and, at other times, it was something that seemed permitted.

Thank you!
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:01AM #2
Dudette
Posts: 137

The way I understand it is that, until they had strong unity as the chosen people, they couldn't but when they had, there was less of a risk in mixing (?).

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:57AM #3
ffb
Posts: 2,223

the issue of marrying local tribes and bringing people in is a very complex one. If you go all the way back to Abraham you'll see that he was careful about selecting a wife for his own child, Isaac. The family connection seems to have indicated a theological or philosophical connection so it was important not to marry out of the extended family (though I have no doubt that it is also reflective of middle eastern social norms also).


Keeping a distinct identity continued through the time in Egypt and, though there was a "mixed multitude" which glommed on, they continued to be outsiders and cause problems.


There are various laws related to marrying other groups with certain tribes being listed as "off limits" and not to be married to (Ammon and Moav come to mind). In other cases, marriage to outsiders is frowned upon but not forbidden, and in some cases, there is an expectation that marriage to an outsider will cause the next generation of children to move away from god. But, there is also a mechanism for bringing people into the fold, a process which became codified later as conversion. So while there are limitations, there are also methods for allowing it to happen.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 9:13AM #4
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hello again ffb!


Thank you for the information...it is always very interesting.  I LOVE to learn!

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 3:39PM #5
TheFogHorn
Posts: 120

The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.

You'd need to read my entire blog to fully understand why I believe the ancient Hebrews worshipped volcanic activity.

http://ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 5:32PM #6
Pam34
Posts: 2,659

Any person of any family, culture or racial makeup is welcome to become a member of the Jewish people. There are Jews of all nations, and every color.



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 6:09PM #7
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.





First of all, being "Jewish" is not a "race" since it's a nationality.  Secondly, I have no clue where you got this "volcano god" idea from.  Thirdly, ever hear of the "genome testing" that's been going on?  Fourth, since many Jews came in as converts, what you say above makes so little sense since gentiles have converted and intermarried and have mixed into the gene pool.  Fifth, Judaism is certainly not a race since "...ism" means a philosophical or religious set of concepts.  Sixth, the most important moral code in Judaism is behaving in a moral manner.  

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 7:51PM #8
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


.... Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.




BS"D


Judaism is NOT a race.  Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people.  UNLIKE both Christianity and Islam, when you convert through the Jewish religion you are joining the Jewish people, not checking your brains at the door by faith as in the other two.  


And as far as "racist ideologies" are concerned - you are being really hypocritical here.  First you use the State of Israel as an example of Judaism and Jewish ideology which it is NOT.  The State of Israel is fundamentally a European colonial power.  Its Jewish character is merely incidental, NOT defining.  OTOH, there exists NO Moslem State where Islam is not the defining ideology of the State and in ALL cases it is 100% racist in EVERY WAY.   Christianity, ironically, is not since the Age of Reason as it created for itself the notion of SECULARISM which, unlike Islam, created a legal framework for the separation of Church and State.  That never happened in Islam.  So all nations under Sharia have absolutely racist laws favoring Muslims.  The laws in Israel favoring Jews are ILLEGAL according to Jewish Law so Israel cannot be compared to any Moslem State even though both practice the same form of legalized racial discrimination.


Now Christianity is a bit more complicated.  For although it has succeded in creating a Secular form of law, where the law-makers are Christians there are frequently racial laws passed based upon Christian religious prejudices.  In such case, even the once-touted bastions of democracy and freedom - Denmark and Sweden - are now subjecting themselves to idiotic racist laws in the process of attempting to accommodate religious practice where it should not be interfering at all.  And although the United States is far behind Denmark and Sweden in democractic principles, it too is creating similar religiously prejudicial laws.


So your argument, ironically again, does NOT sound like the objective view of an atheist, but the ignorant polemicizing of a Moslem propagandist.    Again I encourage you to become EDUCATED in Judaism rather than accepting the LIES about it from Christian (Bible) and Moslem (Hadiths) polemicists as if they were factual.  They are not.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:20PM #9
ffb
Posts: 2,223

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:

The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.


I'm ignoring the silly volcano stuff and I'll simply address the more recent foolishness.


In Israel there are state sanctioned marriages and, yes, there is some governmental control over what marriages are state sanctioned. Deal with it.


Israel never said it could genetically test a person for Jewishness.


Judaism is a religion with a genetic component, not a race.


Faith and blood are both important, but in different ways. Not understanding that means you don't understand thing one about Judaism.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:27AM #10
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Isn't it simply true that Israel lacks a mechanism for performing civil marriages and instead delegates the authoritytoo perform marriages domestically to recognized religious authorities? 


in the case of Jews, marriages in the state have to be performed under the auspices of the orthodox rabbinate (which therefore prohibits intermarriage)? Don't Catholics, the, likewise have to be married by the local Catholic priest and be subject to their religious laws, too?


It's still a seriously f&cked up system but it's not racist. At least the state recognizes all marriages lawfully performed in their jurisdiction of origin once you get back to the country - even same-sex marriages. That's surprisingly progressive.


Its just a problem -and a serious one - that Israel doesn't have a constitution or a guarantee of synagogue/state separation. 

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