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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 10:37AM #11
TheFogHorn
Posts: 120

I do recall in my volcano god thread someone repeatedly telling me, in a very protectionist way, that the Hebrew Bible was not meant for just anyone but only for the Jews. Now, suddenly, the teachings of the Jewish Bible are for everyone.


The truth is that Judaism is an ethnoreligious identifier of human beings and, although converts are permitted, the orthodox opinion is that Jewishness originates in the womb. The Hebrew Bible spells out the importance of genetics and it's still important today....


www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/world/europe/...


Now I have never heard of a Muslim school that would turn away a Muslim child who was born of a converted mother nor have I ever heard of a Christian school turning away a Christian child born of a converted mother.


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.


 


 

You'd need to read my entire blog to fully understand why I believe the ancient Hebrews worshipped volcanic activity.

http://ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 11:48AM #12
LeahOne
Posts: 16,084

"I do recall...."


Seems to me that your recollections, like your comprehension and your 'theory', is also faulty.  None of the stuff you've claimed has been in any way accurate, straightforward, or honest.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:46PM #13
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:37AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


I do recall in my volcano god thread someone repeatedly telling me, in a very protectionist way, that the Hebrew Bible was not meant for just anyone but only for the Jews. Now, suddenly, the teachings of the Jewish Bible are for everyone.



Not sure where you get this from.


There's a difference between authorial intent and the opinions of later readers. If you want to be fully PoMo, authorial intent doesn't matter one bit.


The texts themselves are clearly written by Israelites for Israelites, with no indication of any wider audience. The same is true, I believe, for the Vedas and Upanishads and other sacred Hindu texts. That does not mean, though, that readers of these texts cannot find teachings therein that they believe are universally applicable and worthwhile to be applied to all people.


The truth is that Judaism is an ethnoreligious identifier of human beings and, although converts are permitted, the orthodox opinion is that Jewishness originates in the womb. The Hebrew Bible spells out the importance of genetics and it's still important today....



This is effectively true. Even though converts are permitted, they are discouraged. Moreover, no one agrees whose converts are real true Jews. Israeli authorities have been known to often reject even Orthodox converts as not really Jewish.


Genetics, however, are not the determiner. Jewish law experts have decided that it is the uterus that confers Jewishness, not the ovum. A child conceived in vitro and implanted in the uterus of a Jewish woman is Jewish regardless of the identity of the woman who donated the ovum; conversely, the ovum of a Jewish woman, fertilized and implanted in a non-Jewish uterus, is not Jewish.


www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/world/europe/...


Now I have never heard of a Muslim school that would turn away a Muslim child who was born of a converted mother nor have I ever heard of a Christian school turning away a Christian child born of a converted mother.



The story you cite does not support your thesis. The issue is that the child's mother's conversion was not performed to the legal criteria of the school's interpretation of Jewish law. This is an obnoxious situation that converts face everywhere: Orthodox authorities - including the Israeli rabbinate - do not consider non-Orthodox conversions to be valid.


To be Jewish means fomally to be subject to commandments. These commandments and their interpretation constitute a legal system, and one is either subject to that legal system or not. The system itself determines the rules by which one is subject to its authority and the rules are that one is subject to the system of Jewish law - one is a Jew - if one's mother was a Jew or if one converted according to the legal rules of the system as practiced by that community. The child's mother did not convert according to those standards and thus, in the eyes of that community, she was not Jewish. The community does not recognize patrilineal descent, either, so the child is likewise not a Jew according to that community.


Christianity, on the other hand, is a voluntary creedal religion. Membership in the Christian community depends on the individual's profession of faith and communion with the community - or the profession of faith and communion made on his or her behalf at baptism by one's parents or godparents. It is conceivable that a Christian school would decline to accept a child who had not been baptized, or who had been baptized in a church whose baptism is not accepted by the church in question. For example, few if any orthodox Christian churches recognize Mormon baptism.


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.



What's wrong with that? The Nazis killed Jews regardless of what they believed - even if they had converted to Christianity.


That Israel is supposed to be the national homeland of the Jewish people is predicated on the idea that the Jewish people is not just a religious community but is instead a full civilization, a culture of which religion is an integral element but not the only part of it. With any people of any nation, hereditary is a component. Why should Israel be different?


What really throws a wrench into that plan, however, is that Jews who convert to Christianity are NOT granted automatic citizenship under the Law of Return - even though that wouldn't have saved from the Nazis.


 


 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:33PM #14
vra
Posts: 6,381

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:37AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


 


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.


 


 





What you are twisting around are the terms "Jewish" and "Judaism", which are not the same thing but are somewhat intertwined.  "Jewish" is a nationality, and "Judaism" is a religion.  Therefore, one could be "Jewish" and not ever set foot in a synagogue.  Israel was established as a "Jewish" state-- not a "Judaism" state.  Matter of fact, most of the founders were secular.


Also, when one converts into Judaism. it is as if they were born Jewish since this now becomes their "family".  So, here's a situation whereas one leads to the other.       

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:13PM #15
TheFogHorn
Posts: 120

Apr 16, 2012 -- 11:48AM, LeahOne wrote:


"I do recall...."


Seems to me that your recollections, like your comprehension and your 'theory', is also faulty.  None of the stuff you've claimed has been in any way accurate, straightforward, or honest.




I do not recall you countering any of my points in the volcano threads but I do recall you doing a lot of laughing, shouting and begging for me to stop.

You'd need to read my entire blog to fully understand why I believe the ancient Hebrews worshipped volcanic activity.

http://ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 5:25PM #16
TheFogHorn
Posts: 120

Niecido...'To be Jewish means fomally to be subject to commandments.'


Does that mean that about 80% of the people living in Israel are not Jewish given that 80% are not religious? I assume they do not adhere to the commandments you mention.


Going through the comments in this post tells me that even the Jewish people do not know for sure what constitutes being Jewish because there's every answer in this thread. Even the last two comments contradict each other.


The proof of the pudding though is in the very obvious fact that Judaism or Jewishness, as they are apparently two different things (can a person follow Judaism and not be a Jew just like a person can be a Jew and not follow Judaism?), has not spread very far....and that is evidence that it's not easy to become a Jew. It's a tight knit 'nation', membership-wise.


Via....is being a Jew is a nationality thing then what is a Jew who lives in Israel, nationality-wise? A Jew or an Israeli? Why can't they just call themselves Israelis if they aren't religious? Why do they have to also have this lifetime label of 'Jew'?


There seems to be a lot of fuss about not a lot and too many people forced to endure a label for life and pass it on to their children for their lives when they would probably rather just be called a human being like most everyone else.


 


 

You'd need to read my entire blog to fully understand why I believe the ancient Hebrews worshipped volcanic activity.

http://ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 7:33PM #17
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
So... Are you opposed to ALL ethnic identities or just the Jewish one? Is it OK for parents to label their children with being Irish or Italian or Japanese?

It's not really all that complicated. Regarding the secular Jews, from the religious POV they're still subject to the commandments even if they don't observe them. It's the same with any kind of law system: you're still subject to the laws of your state even if you break them.

Another reason why Judaism is a small religion, relatively, is because it does not teach that persons must become Jews in order to be saved or go to heaven or what-have-you. There is no Great Commission or missionary impulse - and then centuries of persecution have taken their toll.

As for Jew vs Israeli - "Israeli" is their nationality just as mine is "American." "Jewish" is their ethnicity - there are also Israeli Arabs and people of other ethnicities that hold Israeli citizenship. Should these people also jettison their identities? Despite being an "American" by cotizenship, my ethnicity is "Polish."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 2:39PM #18
vra
Posts: 6,381

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:25PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


Via....is being a Jew is a nationality thing then what is a Jew who lives in Israel, nationality-wise? A Jew or an Israeli? Why can't they just call themselves Israelis if they aren't religious? Why do they have to also have this lifetime label of 'Jew'?


There seems to be a lot of fuss about not a lot and too many people forced to endure a label for life and pass it on to their children for their lives when they would probably rather just be called a human being like most everyone else.


 



I am a father, grandfather, a husband, ...  IOW, I have more than one label.  A Jew living in Israel may refer him/herself as being either or both-- or neither, if they prefer.  A Palestinian living in Israel may refer to him/herself as being either or both-- or neither, if they prefer.   As a Jew, I don't have to identify myself as being a Jew if I don't want to, and my children and grandchildren make their own choices as well.  And, yes, I do consider myself to be a "human being" as well-- it's just another label.


Do you have any labels?  If so, why don't you drop all of them and just refer to yourself as a "human being"? 

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