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Flag Dudette April 6, 2012 3:20 PM EDT
Hello everyone!

I would like your help in better understanding how sometimes Hebrews were forbidden to "mix" with others and, at other times, it was something that seemed permitted.

Thank you!
Flag Dudette April 9, 2012 10:01 AM EDT

The way I understand it is that, until they had strong unity as the chosen people, they couldn't but when they had, there was less of a risk in mixing (?).

Flag ffb April 9, 2012 11:57 AM EDT

the issue of marrying local tribes and bringing people in is a very complex one. If you go all the way back to Abraham you'll see that he was careful about selecting a wife for his own child, Isaac. The family connection seems to have indicated a theological or philosophical connection so it was important not to marry out of the extended family (though I have no doubt that it is also reflective of middle eastern social norms also).


Keeping a distinct identity continued through the time in Egypt and, though there was a "mixed multitude" which glommed on, they continued to be outsiders and cause problems.


There are various laws related to marrying other groups with certain tribes being listed as "off limits" and not to be married to (Ammon and Moav come to mind). In other cases, marriage to outsiders is frowned upon but not forbidden, and in some cases, there is an expectation that marriage to an outsider will cause the next generation of children to move away from god. But, there is also a mechanism for bringing people into the fold, a process which became codified later as conversion. So while there are limitations, there are also methods for allowing it to happen.

Flag Dudette April 10, 2012 9:13 AM EDT

Hello again ffb!


Thank you for the information...it is always very interesting.  I LOVE to learn!

Flag TheFogHorn April 15, 2012 3:39 PM EDT

The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.

Flag Pam34 April 15, 2012 5:32 PM EDT

Any person of any family, culture or racial makeup is welcome to become a member of the Jewish people. There are Jews of all nations, and every color.



Flag vra April 15, 2012 6:09 PM EDT

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.





First of all, being "Jewish" is not a "race" since it's a nationality.  Secondly, I have no clue where you got this "volcano god" idea from.  Thirdly, ever hear of the "genome testing" that's been going on?  Fourth, since many Jews came in as converts, what you say above makes so little sense since gentiles have converted and intermarried and have mixed into the gene pool.  Fifth, Judaism is certainly not a race since "...ism" means a philosophical or religious set of concepts.  Sixth, the most important moral code in Judaism is behaving in a moral manner.  

Flag Bunsinspace April 15, 2012 7:51 PM EDT

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


.... Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.




BS"D


Judaism is NOT a race.  Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people.  UNLIKE both Christianity and Islam, when you convert through the Jewish religion you are joining the Jewish people, not checking your brains at the door by faith as in the other two.  


And as far as "racist ideologies" are concerned - you are being really hypocritical here.  First you use the State of Israel as an example of Judaism and Jewish ideology which it is NOT.  The State of Israel is fundamentally a European colonial power.  Its Jewish character is merely incidental, NOT defining.  OTOH, there exists NO Moslem State where Islam is not the defining ideology of the State and in ALL cases it is 100% racist in EVERY WAY.   Christianity, ironically, is not since the Age of Reason as it created for itself the notion of SECULARISM which, unlike Islam, created a legal framework for the separation of Church and State.  That never happened in Islam.  So all nations under Sharia have absolutely racist laws favoring Muslims.  The laws in Israel favoring Jews are ILLEGAL according to Jewish Law so Israel cannot be compared to any Moslem State even though both practice the same form of legalized racial discrimination.


Now Christianity is a bit more complicated.  For although it has succeded in creating a Secular form of law, where the law-makers are Christians there are frequently racial laws passed based upon Christian religious prejudices.  In such case, even the once-touted bastions of democracy and freedom - Denmark and Sweden - are now subjecting themselves to idiotic racist laws in the process of attempting to accommodate religious practice where it should not be interfering at all.  And although the United States is far behind Denmark and Sweden in democractic principles, it too is creating similar religiously prejudicial laws.


So your argument, ironically again, does NOT sound like the objective view of an atheist, but the ignorant polemicizing of a Moslem propagandist.    Again I encourage you to become EDUCATED in Judaism rather than accepting the LIES about it from Christian (Bible) and Moslem (Hadiths) polemicists as if they were factual.  They are not.

Flag ffb April 15, 2012 9:20 PM EDT

Apr 15, 2012 -- 3:39PM, TheFogHorn wrote:

The Hebrews were ok welcoming into their volcano worship cult the virginal girls of genocidally slaughtered towns, the offspring of which would have been Hebrew. Now in Israel it is not permitted for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. They must leave Israel in order to do so. The Israelis recently claimed they could now genetically test a person to see if they are Jewish or not. They could, if ever they needed to, test every person on the planet to seperate out the Jews from the Goy, as non-Jews are called. Judaism is a race and not a religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, the most important thing is not faith but blood. There could not be a more racist ideology on the planet.


I'm ignoring the silly volcano stuff and I'll simply address the more recent foolishness.


In Israel there are state sanctioned marriages and, yes, there is some governmental control over what marriages are state sanctioned. Deal with it.


Israel never said it could genetically test a person for Jewishness.


Judaism is a religion with a genetic component, not a race.


Faith and blood are both important, but in different ways. Not understanding that means you don't understand thing one about Judaism.


 

Flag nieciedo April 16, 2012 7:27 AM EDT

Isn't it simply true that Israel lacks a mechanism for performing civil marriages and instead delegates the authoritytoo perform marriages domestically to recognized religious authorities? 


in the case of Jews, marriages in the state have to be performed under the auspices of the orthodox rabbinate (which therefore prohibits intermarriage)? Don't Catholics, the, likewise have to be married by the local Catholic priest and be subject to their religious laws, too?


It's still a seriously f&cked up system but it's not racist. At least the state recognizes all marriages lawfully performed in their jurisdiction of origin once you get back to the country - even same-sex marriages. That's surprisingly progressive.


Its just a problem -and a serious one - that Israel doesn't have a constitution or a guarantee of synagogue/state separation. 

Flag TheFogHorn April 16, 2012 10:37 AM EDT

I do recall in my volcano god thread someone repeatedly telling me, in a very protectionist way, that the Hebrew Bible was not meant for just anyone but only for the Jews. Now, suddenly, the teachings of the Jewish Bible are for everyone.


The truth is that Judaism is an ethnoreligious identifier of human beings and, although converts are permitted, the orthodox opinion is that Jewishness originates in the womb. The Hebrew Bible spells out the importance of genetics and it's still important today....


www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/world/europe/...


Now I have never heard of a Muslim school that would turn away a Muslim child who was born of a converted mother nor have I ever heard of a Christian school turning away a Christian child born of a converted mother.


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.


 


 

Flag LeahOne April 16, 2012 11:48 AM EDT

"I do recall...."


Seems to me that your recollections, like your comprehension and your 'theory', is also faulty.  None of the stuff you've claimed has been in any way accurate, straightforward, or honest.

Flag nieciedo April 16, 2012 12:46 PM EDT

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:37AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


I do recall in my volcano god thread someone repeatedly telling me, in a very protectionist way, that the Hebrew Bible was not meant for just anyone but only for the Jews. Now, suddenly, the teachings of the Jewish Bible are for everyone.



Not sure where you get this from.


There's a difference between authorial intent and the opinions of later readers. If you want to be fully PoMo, authorial intent doesn't matter one bit.


The texts themselves are clearly written by Israelites for Israelites, with no indication of any wider audience. The same is true, I believe, for the Vedas and Upanishads and other sacred Hindu texts. That does not mean, though, that readers of these texts cannot find teachings therein that they believe are universally applicable and worthwhile to be applied to all people.


The truth is that Judaism is an ethnoreligious identifier of human beings and, although converts are permitted, the orthodox opinion is that Jewishness originates in the womb. The Hebrew Bible spells out the importance of genetics and it's still important today....



This is effectively true. Even though converts are permitted, they are discouraged. Moreover, no one agrees whose converts are real true Jews. Israeli authorities have been known to often reject even Orthodox converts as not really Jewish.


Genetics, however, are not the determiner. Jewish law experts have decided that it is the uterus that confers Jewishness, not the ovum. A child conceived in vitro and implanted in the uterus of a Jewish woman is Jewish regardless of the identity of the woman who donated the ovum; conversely, the ovum of a Jewish woman, fertilized and implanted in a non-Jewish uterus, is not Jewish.


www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/world/europe/...


Now I have never heard of a Muslim school that would turn away a Muslim child who was born of a converted mother nor have I ever heard of a Christian school turning away a Christian child born of a converted mother.



The story you cite does not support your thesis. The issue is that the child's mother's conversion was not performed to the legal criteria of the school's interpretation of Jewish law. This is an obnoxious situation that converts face everywhere: Orthodox authorities - including the Israeli rabbinate - do not consider non-Orthodox conversions to be valid.


To be Jewish means fomally to be subject to commandments. These commandments and their interpretation constitute a legal system, and one is either subject to that legal system or not. The system itself determines the rules by which one is subject to its authority and the rules are that one is subject to the system of Jewish law - one is a Jew - if one's mother was a Jew or if one converted according to the legal rules of the system as practiced by that community. The child's mother did not convert according to those standards and thus, in the eyes of that community, she was not Jewish. The community does not recognize patrilineal descent, either, so the child is likewise not a Jew according to that community.


Christianity, on the other hand, is a voluntary creedal religion. Membership in the Christian community depends on the individual's profession of faith and communion with the community - or the profession of faith and communion made on his or her behalf at baptism by one's parents or godparents. It is conceivable that a Christian school would decline to accept a child who had not been baptized, or who had been baptized in a church whose baptism is not accepted by the church in question. For example, few if any orthodox Christian churches recognize Mormon baptism.


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.



What's wrong with that? The Nazis killed Jews regardless of what they believed - even if they had converted to Christianity.


That Israel is supposed to be the national homeland of the Jewish people is predicated on the idea that the Jewish people is not just a religious community but is instead a full civilization, a culture of which religion is an integral element but not the only part of it. With any people of any nation, hereditary is a component. Why should Israel be different?


What really throws a wrench into that plan, however, is that Jews who convert to Christianity are NOT granted automatic citizenship under the Law of Return - even though that wouldn't have saved from the Nazis.


 


 





Flag vra April 16, 2012 2:33 PM EDT

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:37AM, TheFogHorn wrote:


 


Jewishness can in fact be so unrelated to what goes on in your head that an atheist Jew has the automatic right to emigrate to Israel.


 


 





What you are twisting around are the terms "Jewish" and "Judaism", which are not the same thing but are somewhat intertwined.  "Jewish" is a nationality, and "Judaism" is a religion.  Therefore, one could be "Jewish" and not ever set foot in a synagogue.  Israel was established as a "Jewish" state-- not a "Judaism" state.  Matter of fact, most of the founders were secular.


Also, when one converts into Judaism. it is as if they were born Jewish since this now becomes their "family".  So, here's a situation whereas one leads to the other.       

Flag TheFogHorn April 16, 2012 5:13 PM EDT

Apr 16, 2012 -- 11:48AM, LeahOne wrote:


"I do recall...."


Seems to me that your recollections, like your comprehension and your 'theory', is also faulty.  None of the stuff you've claimed has been in any way accurate, straightforward, or honest.




I do not recall you countering any of my points in the volcano threads but I do recall you doing a lot of laughing, shouting and begging for me to stop.

Flag TheFogHorn April 16, 2012 5:25 PM EDT

Niecido...'To be Jewish means fomally to be subject to commandments.'


Does that mean that about 80% of the people living in Israel are not Jewish given that 80% are not religious? I assume they do not adhere to the commandments you mention.


Going through the comments in this post tells me that even the Jewish people do not know for sure what constitutes being Jewish because there's every answer in this thread. Even the last two comments contradict each other.


The proof of the pudding though is in the very obvious fact that Judaism or Jewishness, as they are apparently two different things (can a person follow Judaism and not be a Jew just like a person can be a Jew and not follow Judaism?), has not spread very far....and that is evidence that it's not easy to become a Jew. It's a tight knit 'nation', membership-wise.


Via....is being a Jew is a nationality thing then what is a Jew who lives in Israel, nationality-wise? A Jew or an Israeli? Why can't they just call themselves Israelis if they aren't religious? Why do they have to also have this lifetime label of 'Jew'?


There seems to be a lot of fuss about not a lot and too many people forced to endure a label for life and pass it on to their children for their lives when they would probably rather just be called a human being like most everyone else.


 


 

Flag nieciedo April 16, 2012 7:33 PM EDT
So... Are you opposed to ALL ethnic identities or just the Jewish one? Is it OK for parents to label their children with being Irish or Italian or Japanese?

It's not really all that complicated. Regarding the secular Jews, from the religious POV they're still subject to the commandments even if they don't observe them. It's the same with any kind of law system: you're still subject to the laws of your state even if you break them.

Another reason why Judaism is a small religion, relatively, is because it does not teach that persons must become Jews in order to be saved or go to heaven or what-have-you. There is no Great Commission or missionary impulse - and then centuries of persecution have taken their toll.

As for Jew vs Israeli - "Israeli" is their nationality just as mine is "American." "Jewish" is their ethnicity - there are also Israeli Arabs and people of other ethnicities that hold Israeli citizenship. Should these people also jettison their identities? Despite being an "American" by cotizenship, my ethnicity is "Polish."
Flag vra April 17, 2012 2:39 PM EDT

Apr 16, 2012 -- 5:25PM, TheFogHorn wrote:


Via....is being a Jew is a nationality thing then what is a Jew who lives in Israel, nationality-wise? A Jew or an Israeli? Why can't they just call themselves Israelis if they aren't religious? Why do they have to also have this lifetime label of 'Jew'?


There seems to be a lot of fuss about not a lot and too many people forced to endure a label for life and pass it on to their children for their lives when they would probably rather just be called a human being like most everyone else.


 



I am a father, grandfather, a husband, ...  IOW, I have more than one label.  A Jew living in Israel may refer him/herself as being either or both-- or neither, if they prefer.  A Palestinian living in Israel may refer to him/herself as being either or both-- or neither, if they prefer.   As a Jew, I don't have to identify myself as being a Jew if I don't want to, and my children and grandchildren make their own choices as well.  And, yes, I do consider myself to be a "human being" as well-- it's just another label.


Do you have any labels?  If so, why don't you drop all of them and just refer to yourself as a "human being"? 

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