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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 5:18PM #21
hewy1952
Posts: 2,455

This represents a lot of priests in Ireland.  I'm glad to see a response.


(More to come in the next post). 


 


Priests warn Vatican over move to censor Flannery



An 800-strong group of Irish priests has said it is disturbed over the  Vatican's silencing of one of its members for his liberal views.
The  Association of Catholic Priests has warned that forcing Father Tony Flannery to  stop writing for a Redemptorist magazine will fuel belief of a disconnect  between Irish Catholics and Rome.
"We believe that such an approach, in  its individual focus on Fr Flannery and inevitably by implication on the members  of the association, is an extremely ill-advised intervention in the present  pastoral context in Ireland," the group said.
"We wish to make clear our  profound view that this intervention is unfair, unwarranted and  unwise."
Fr Flannery, a founder of the association, has had his monthly  column with the religious publication Reality pulled on orders from  Rome.
A second priest, Father Gerard Moloney, the magazine's editor, has  been ordered to stop writing on certain issues.
Both priests hold liberal  views on contraception, celibacy and women priests.
At least a dozen  priests had already publicly declared support for Fr Flannery and Fr Moloney in  messages on the association's website.
In a strongly-worded statement,  the group said Fr Flannery's writings should not be seen as an attack on or  rejection of the fundamental teachings of the church but a reflection on issues  surfacing in parishes nationwide.
It said they also reject their  portrayal in some circles as a "small coterie of radical priests with a radical  agenda".
"Accordingly, we wish to register our extreme unease and  disquiet at the present development, not least the secrecy surrounding such  interventions and the questions about due process and freedom of conscience that  such interventions surface," the group said.
"At this critical juncture  in our history, the ACP believes that this form of intervention - what  Archbishop Diarmuid Martin recently called 'heresy-hunting' - is of no service  to the Irish Catholic Church and may have the unintended effect of exacerbating  a growing perception of a significant 'disconnect' between the Irish Church and  Rome."
Fr Flannery, who has written on religious matters in the  Redemptorist magazine for 14 years, is under investigation by the Vatican over  his views.
As well as expressing opposition to the church's ban on  contraception and women priests, Fr Flannery publicly backed Taoiseach Enda  Kenny's unprecedented attack on the Catholic hierarchy in the aftermath of the  Cloyne Report last year.
In a Holy Thursday homily at St Peter's Basilica  in Rome, Pope Benedict warned that the church will not tolerate priests speaking  out against Catholic teaching.


Read more: www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/irela...

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 5:21PM #22
hewy1952
Posts: 2,455

We Are Church responds to Benedict XVI





International Movement We Are Church – IMWAC Movimiento internacional Somos-Iglesia Movimento Internacional Nós somos Igreja Movimento Internazionale Noi siamo Chiesa Mouvement international Nous sommes Eglise Internationale Bewegung Wir sind Kirche www.we-are-church.org  www.somos-iglesia.org Rome, April 5, 2012 / Lisbon, April 8, 2012

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Benedict XVI wants obedience by Austrian priests. But is obedience still a virtue?
The homily delivered by Benedict XVI on April 5, in the traditional Chrism Mass of Holy Thursday, was particularly important. It seems necessary to express some critical reflections on it.
The Pope spoke indirectly of the text of the June 19, 2011, signed to date by about 400 Austrian priests, known as the Pfarrer-Initiative. It has been followed by other important appeals in northern Europe of similar content.

 

These priests say they are obliged to follow, especially in relation to the shortage of clergy, "their conscience" and to "take action independently" as regards the organization of their ministry. They include active participation by the Laity and pose questions about opening up the Eucharist to the divorced and remarried, and the ordination of women and married people. But Benedict XVI, like Pope Wojtyla, will not discuss the matter, never. Ever since the international movement "We Are Church", born in Austria seventeen years ago, first raised these issues, there has been no rapport, no dialogue with the Vatican.

The Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Schönborn, seems to have tried but was unable to carry the debate to Rome. In his homily Benedict XVI has addressed these issues only in terms of due obedience to the Magisterium. But is obedience still a virtue? The Pope touched, in particular, on the issue of the ordination of women, repeating the line taken by Pope Wojtyla. It is not available for discussion. But, within the Church, many argue that there are no truly valid theological objections against going in this direction, and this opinion is spreading.
Benedict XVI then said that in the post-conciliar history, true renewal "has taken shape in unexpected movements full of life." The indeterminate words of the Pope did not clarify what these movements are. We would like to propose at least the base Christian communities and all those that have sprung up, inspired by the theology of liberation. We are sure that the Pope did not wish to refer only to movements like Communion and Liberation, charismatics, etc...

Finally Benedict XVI asserted his full authority when he confirmed the "Note with pastoral guidelines for the year of the faith" of January 6, signed by Cardinal Levada where he asserts that "the texts of the Second Vatican Council and the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church are the essential tools that show us in an authentic way what the Church believes, regarding the Word of God ".. We refute in toto this equivalence between the authority of the Council and that of the Catechism, two qualitatively different sources, as we have long said. The Year of the faith should be the time to resort to the spirit of Vatican II and its texts to release the Church from its stagnation and to evangelize from the beginning of the third millenium. "

 


Please contact / Póngase en contacto con / Contatti / Contacter /Kontakt/ Por favor contacte:
Austria: Hans Peter Hurka +43-650-315 42 00 hans_peter.hurka@gmx.at Belgium: Edith Kuropatwa-Fèvre +32-(0)-2-567-09-64 ekf.paves@happymany.net Brazil:Alder Calado aldercalado@gmail.com Canada: Jean Trudeau +1-450-670-9635 trudeau.jean@videotron.ca Cataluña: Francesc Bragulat somescat@somesglesia-cat.org Chile: Enrique Orellana +56-696 4491 lapazesobradelajusticia@yahoo.com Denmark: Kaare Rübner Jorgensen +45-367 81 804 ruebnerjo@webspeed.dk Finland: Giovanni Politi giovanni.politi@kolumbus.fi France: Didier Vanhoutte dvanhoutte@club-internet.fr Germany: Christian Weisner +49-172-518 40 82 media@we-are-church.org Hungary: Dr. Marcell Mártonffy +36-1 2190621 martonffy@pantelweb.hu Ireland: Brendan Butler brendan13@eircom.net Italy: Vittorio Bellavite +39-02-70602370 vi.bel@IOL.IT Netherlands: Henk Baars +31-20 6370221 hbaars@steknet.nl Norway: Aasmund Vik +47-47269148 aasmund.vik@nationaltheatret.no Peru: Franz Wieser +51-1-4492716 fwieser@speedy.com.pe Portugal: Maria Joao Sande Lemos +351-91 460 2336 mjoaosandel@gmail.com South Africa: Brian Robertson +27-21-7945527 brian.r@mweb.co.za Spain: Raquel Mallavibarrena +34-649332654 rmal@telefonica.net Sweden: Krister Janzon +46-86620802 krister.janzon@comhem.se Switzerland: Brigitte Durrer +41-819212725 bridu@gmx.ch United Kingdom: Valerie Stroud +44-(0)7904 332201 valeriejstroud@we-are-church.org United States: Anthony Padovano +1-973-539-8732 tpadovan@optonline.net
Homepage: www.we-are-church.org/
International Movement We Are Church Background Information
The International Movement We Are Church, founded in Rome in 1996, is represented in more than twenty countries on all continents and is networking world-wide with similar-minded reform groups. We Are Church is an international movement within the Roman-Catholic Church and aims at renewal on the basis of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). We Are Church was started in Austria in 1995 with a church referendum.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 6:39PM #23
mokantx
Posts: 3,826

Hewy


thanks for the posts.



I suppose there's little really new in all of that.  Benedict and his predecessor remain invincibly obstinant in their personal beliefs, and they demand radical obedience to their beliefs.  I find the use of the term "radical" to be most interesting in all of this.


We hear, for example, about the "radical" message of the Gospels, and how this radical message of hope can and should change the world.  And indeed, it has over time.  Yet Benedict takes the concept and flips it, demanding fealty to his personal version.  Once again, we have the episcopacy's viewpoint being imposed on the rest of the church, including the clergy itself.


I've said this many times here: while I know what my personal preferences are, I am not so foolish as to believe that because I hold those beliefs personally, that my views should be adopted.  What I do not understand, however, is the absolute refusal to enter into a dialog within his own church.  By that refusal, I think Benedict is simply hardening the positions of all involved, and thus all but guaranteeing a schism in "his" church.  I don't use the term "his" lightly, because what we are seeing, is that much of the church is moving on.  The youth, in particular, are simply walking away in massive numbers, leaving the gray hairs the remnants.  The effects of this will be seen in a generation or two, when those marrying today, do not bring their kids up in the church.  As that cycle repeats, the self sustainability of the church will fall apart, leaving a small, remnant church, the church Benedict apparently envisions,  filled with folks like Raymond Burke: dogmatists, but not very pleasant people to deal with, and not at all the kind of place that the modern world will see as a beacon of hope.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 8:05PM #24
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Apr 9, 2012 -- 6:39PM, mokantx wrote:


Hewy


thanks for the posts.



I suppose there's little really new in all of that.  Benedict and his predecessor remain invincibly obstinant in their personal beliefs, and they demand radical obedience to their beliefs.  I find the use of the term "radical" to be most interesting in all of this.


We hear, for example, about the "radical" message of the Gospels, and how this radical message of hope can and should change the world.  And indeed, it has over time.  Yet Benedict takes the concept and flips it, demanding fealty to his personal version.  Once again, we have the episcopacy's viewpoint being imposed on the rest of the church, including the clergy itself.


I've said this many times here: while I know what my personal preferences are, I am not so foolish as to believe that because I hold those beliefs personally, that my views should be adopted.  What I do not understand, however, is the absolute refusal to enter into a dialog within his own church.  By that refusal, I think Benedict is simply hardening the positions of all involved, and thus all but guaranteeing a schism in "his" church.  I don't use the term "his" lightly, because what we are seeing, is that much of the church is moving on.  The youth, in particular, are simply walking away in massive numbers, leaving the gray hairs the remnants.  The effects of this will be seen in a generation or two, when those marrying today, do not bring their kids up in the church.  As that cycle repeats, the self sustainability of the church will fall apart, leaving a small, remnant church, the church Benedict apparently envisions,  filled with folks like Raymond Burke: dogmatists, but not very pleasant people to deal with, and not at all the kind of place that the modern world will see as a beacon of hope.




Mo


More than a little a little wisdom in this post. My Catholic grandchildren 15-17-20 have walked away. These young people will be fifth generation college educated, one is finishing up his 4th semester at MIT. They and those like them know how to think and evaluate.


I'm pleased that the priests in Europe and Australia are "interfering". Would that more of our American priests would or could. My former pastor has chosen to be a high school chaplain and he was so Vatican II.  The gray-hairs in my former parish gave him grief--especially those who solely attended parochial grade schools. The newer lot are all JPII mentored.




 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 10:40PM #25
mokantx
Posts: 3,826

Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:05PM, jane2 wrote:


Mo


More than a little a little wisdom in this post. My Catholic grandchildren 15-17-20 have walked away. These young people will be fifth generation college educated, one is finishing up his 4th semester at MIT. They and those like them know how to think and evaluate.


I'm pleased that the priests in Europe and Australia are "interfering". Would that more of our American priests would or could. My former pastor has chosen to be a high school chaplain and he was so Vatican II.  The gray-hairs in my former parish gave him grief--especially those who solely attended parochial grade schools. The newer lot are all JPII mentored.
 




Jane


That I am not a fan of Benedict or JPII should not surprise anyone.  Frankly, I don't care what they've written, nor whether or not they were "good" men in terms of their own life.  What I DO care about is their effect on "the church."  Clearly, I think "the church" is NOT the hierarchy, but the struggling, inconsistent, sometimes immature but ever hopeful people who try, each in his/her own way, to find the path every day of their lives.  I see tremendous wisdom in the lives of these people.  I also believe that what is holding the church back from what it could be is the attitude of guys like Benedict and JPII, who clearly see the laity as something not to be trusted. 


So we live in an inverted world, wherein an all male organization can tell us that refusal to allow women the same rights and priveleges is not descrimination.  We live in a world where these celibate men think they know better than a billion (more or less) married people about human sexuality.  We live in a world wherein they don't believe accountability should apply to them, only to everybody else.  And sadly, THEY live in a world where they think future generations will listen to them because of their office. 


The simple truth is that much of our generation has already walked or otherwise checked out.  And the young have discovered the simple truth that one need not follow a bishop to find God.


The potential that is being squandered by NOT engaging in dialog and listening, is stunning.  For all of their education, so many of these guys simply and truly don't get what life itself is all about.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 09, 2012 - 11:26PM #26
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Apr 9, 2012 -- 10:40PM, mokantx wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 8:05PM, jane2 wrote:


Mo


More than a little a little wisdom in this post. My Catholic grandchildren 15-17-20 have walked away. These young people will be fifth generation college educated, one is finishing up his 4th semester at MIT. They and those like them know how to think and evaluate.


I'm pleased that the priests in Europe and Australia are "interfering". Would that more of our American priests would or could. My former pastor has chosen to be a high school chaplain and he was so Vatican II.  The gray-hairs in my former parish gave him grief--especially those who solely attended parochial grade schools. The newer lot are all JPII mentored.
 




Jane


That I am not a fan of Benedict or JPII should not surprise anyone.  Frankly, I don't care what they've written, nor whether or not they were "good" men in terms of their own life.  What I DO care about is their effect on "the church."  Clearly, I think "the church" is NOT the hierarchy, but the struggling, inconsistent, sometimes immature but ever hopeful people who try, each in his/her own way, to find the path every day of their lives.  I see tremendous wisdom in the lives of these people.  I also believe that what is holding the church back from what it could be is the attitude of guys like Benedict and JPII, who clearly see the laity as something not to be trusted. 


So we live in an inverted world, wherein an all male organization can tell us that refusal to allow women the same rights and priveleges is not descrimination.  We live in a world where these celibate men think they know better than a billion (more or less) married people about human sexuality.  We live in a world wherein they don't believe accountability should apply to them, only to everybody else.  And sadly, THEY live in a world where they think future generations will listen to them because of their office. 


The simple truth is that much of our generation has already walked or otherwise checked out.  And the young have discovered the simple truth that one need not follow a bishop to find God.


The potential that is being squandered by NOT engaging in dialog and listening, is stunning.  For all of their education, so many of these guys simply and truly don't get what life itself is all about.




I so agree, Mo.


These men have no concept of the non-third-world, Europe, the US and Australia, as well as part of Asia well educated in the Faith. Nor of a clergy that can think and try to relate. No, they do not know what life is all about.


I was so thrilled last week to spend time with my son and his wife and three of my grandchildren. We had exquisite conversations. I enjoy learning from my middle-aged children and their children. For heaven's sake neither of the last two popes had even nieces and nephews. How very truncated.




 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 12:49AM #27
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,965

...The Resurrection can be an ongoing reality because, like the Exodus, it is not a historical event...


 HUH???


The Resurrection is history's most important EVENT...It better have been VERY REAL, or we Christ-followers are in deep spiritual trouble and eternal life is at stake!



John 11: 21-26...Jesus: He IS the Resurrection and spiritual Life after death!


Martha then said to Jesus,
“LORD, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus said to her,
“Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him,
“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
Jesus (the God-Man!) said to her,
“I AM the Resurrection and the Life;
he who BELIEVES  in Me will live,
 even if he dies,
and everyone who lives and believes in Me
will never die.
Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, LORD;
I have believed that You are the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God,
even He who comes into the world.” (from heaven!)


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 10:10AM #28
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Apr 5, 2012 -- 7:25PM, cherubino wrote:

... and step aside, please. Your passion, death & resurrection are on hold until further notice. As a matter of fact, these old stories are hardly top priorities in the Church any more. Holy Thursday or not, the Pope has more important things to talk about.


I have posted many times that Jesus is in the back of the bus in the Roman Catholic Church; if he is there at all.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:46PM #29
gilg
Posts: 5,200

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Marcion wrote:

Apr 5, 2012 -- 7:25PM, cherubino wrote:

... and step aside, please. Your passion, death & resurrection are on hold until further notice. As a matter of fact, these old stories are hardly top priorities in the Church any more. Holy Thursday or not, the Pope has more important things to talk about.



I have posted many times that Jesus is in the back of the bus in the Roman Catholic Church; if he is there at all.




I think He is tied up on top of the bus.... keep kind of close but out of sight, the bus is marching towards Ceaser (royalty and power - Trent) and can't have someone in the bus yelling that the bus is going the wrong way....

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 8:50PM #30
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,965

It is VERY simple.


To the extent that every "denomination", such as the tradition-burdened RCC, has BELIEVERS in its midst who have a spiritual RELATIONSHIP with the TRI-UNE GOD, they will see each other in the spiritual "Kingdom of Heaven".


And guess who has the "KEYS"...CLUE: it ain't Simon Peter the petulant fisherman...It ain't Paul, the greatest missionary and writer revealed in the NT...It ain't the apostles and the "church fathers'.... IT IS:


The historical Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, The Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, the God-Man, spiritual PERSON of the TRI-UNE GOD, LORD, Master, adonai, YHWH (?), The Divine One ...


who offers only uncondtional LOVE and perfect JUSTICE, and the umerited gift of Grace through spirit-led Faith unto salvation.


Jesus does not "ROLL OVER" for ANYONE!!!!


Here's my definition of "CHURCH"...run this by RCC theologians ...if you please....


The "CHURCH" ("The Living Church?") is the collective "Body" of BELIEVERS who are permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit at the time of their Salvation. The "Head" and the "Corner Stone" is God the Son, the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man. Its "building blocks" are the "Grace through Faith" good news which guides the estranged Man to become a saved BODY + SOUL + SPIRIT.


SEE: e.g. (NASB)


Ephesians 4: 2-6; 1 Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 22:16


Psalm 118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders (Israel) rejected has become the chief corner stone.(of the Church)


Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
" Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone
for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

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