Apr 13, 2012 -- 5:10PM, Shusha wrote:

Um, I am just a beginner here, but isn't compliance with the required behaviour supposed to elevate you so the ideas can come to the forefront?  Isn't that the purpose of Shabbat:  to put aside mundane things and give you the time and space to allow yourself to be elevated?

Not really, no.

I mean, that's one possible ex post facto interpretation, but there's nothing in the original source material that says there's any point to the "required behavior" besides obedience for its own sake.

But then there's the question of what, exactly, is the "required behavior?"

The Written Torah gives a few (613 give or take) rules. But then there's this "Oral Torah" that no one had ever heard of until the Pharisees started talking about it during the Second Temple period, which contains even more rules. And then there have been 2000 years of unelected rabbis who make up even more rules, and ALL of them must be obeyed or you're not a good Jew.

So there's all this stuff you have to all, all these rules you have to follow, and they all take energy out of you, they all require you to act or refrain from acting as you might otherwise want. But for what? How do you know that everything on the list is what God commands, or is even necessary? I don't want to do anything more than the absolute minimum of what is necessary to get by. I want to do only what God actually wants, not what some obsessive/compulsive rabbis made up.

Shusha,

As a sidenote, what's your background and how did you become interested in Judaism and eventually a convert? Your story seems fascinating.

Kind regards,

Wabbit

Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:58AM, Shusha wrote:

The dilemma is seeing, on one hand, the evident inapplicability of explicit ancient commandments to our age whil, on the other, seeing that we should see God's will for ourselves and not through the filter of other fallible men.

Wabbit,

Your comments don't quite ring true for me.  Its not quite how I would choose to word it.  No fault of yours, just not quite it, for me. 

For me, its a question of finding personal meaning and purpose through observance.  That might be a connection to the divine, or a way of improving the world, or a way of being better with my fellow travellers through this time and space.

Howdy Shusha,

Thanks for your explanation. As I said, I understand you fully. I was only highlighting Nieciedo's point on the true Will of God. Where is it to be found? The Tanakh explicitly mandates the death penalty for 36 offenses whereas the State of Israel allows the death penalty only in wartime for certain explicit war crimes.

There's nothing unreasonable to be wondering why is God's eternal Will such that it need not be observed in the future by God's people. Hence the Karaites and Nieciedo both have a point.

I thank God that the bulk of Jews are smart and would never call for a strict observance of Deuteronomy penalties. However, in doing so they're not being "observant" of the scripture. In contrast, by eliminating the death penalty the State of Israel legally proscribes explicit Sinaitic penalties. They're not even on the table as the final or ultimate option after all other "mitigating" factors have not been met. All talk about the mitigating halakhic factors is irrelevant when the factual reality is not only mitigation but de facto and de jure elimination of Mosaic penalties.

I can very well understand some interpretive freedom. But absolute freedom to go diametrically counter to explicit scriptural provisions? Either the Torah is authentic and fully effective (which would support Karaite leanings), authentic but revised (which would support Christian leanings), partially authentic and outdated (some Muslim leanings), or wholly unauthentic and outdated (atheist and secular leanings) as a repository of the Will of God. But to consider it wholly authentic and not fully effective (non-Karaite religious Jews of various denominations) just doesn't seem to add up on purely logical grounds.

But I'm known to err. Please do not take offense from my sincere question.

Kind regards,

LilWabbit

Apr 14, 2012 -- 2:21AM, Shusha wrote:

Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:38AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

Shusha,

As a sidenote, what's your background and how did you become interested in Judaism and eventually a convert? Your story seems fascinating.

Kind regards,

Wabbit

Shrug.  Not fascinating at all.  Rather pedestrian.  I grew up with a mostly non-practicing but believing Catholic mother, an atheist father with an Anglican background.  Used to have long discussions with my mom and my sisters about Christianity, which lead to intense exploration of its tenents and many, many debates with just about every Christian who crossed my path.  Some of the questions brought up led me to explore Judaism.  And, I don't know, it just made sense. It all just resonated.  It was like coming back to a childhood home where everything was forgotten, but somehow familiar.

I don't want to make it sound like it was an sudden spiritual moment of change or anything like that.  It wasn't like that at all.  It just grew layer by layer as I learned more about it.  And the big stumbling block for me was understanding that, in order to BE Jewish, I had to not only adopt the tenets of the faith (which was easy and automatic) but somehow become part of the community.  Didn't have a clue how I would ever feel like I belonged.

And then one day (this part was sudden), I just did.  I couldn't imagine being any other way.  Then it occurred to me that it was easy enough for ME to feel that way, but that didn't mean the Jewish people would accept me.  And sometime not long after that someone here on Bnet (It might have been Clyde, or Howie, I can't remember who, it doesn't matter) said that obviously mine was one of the souls that had been at Sinai and what was I waiting for -- go convert already! 

Still haven't done it.  And this comes from personal issues of not being "good enough".  I have a long list of things that need to be done first:  become fluent in Hebrew, for example.  I need time and space in my life to do it right.  Soon, I feel. 

Genuinely fascinating! I'd have many more questions to ask but this wouldn't be the right thread or place.

Thanks for your candid sharing!

Wabbit