... This is what Augustine wrote, to his eternal shame ...
“And this,” He [Jesus, according to John 17:3] adds, “is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.” The proper order [sic! LOL! the Augustinian chutzpah!] of the words is, “That they may know Thee and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent, as the only true God.” -- Augustine of Hippo, Homilies on the Gospel of John etc., Ch. XVII, 1-5, Tractate CV, §3 (@ ccel.org)
That little squirmy thing, Augustine, dares to change the order of the words of the Gospel of John, for the simple reason that, otherwise they wouldn't jibe with his "trinitarianism".
*yawn*
"God is light." (1 John 1, 1 John 2)
Jesus: "the true light." (John 1)
I quite understand that the lady may find indisputable facts so boring as to make her *yawn*, when compared to the immediateness of her ... er ... mystical insights ...
... but why doesn't she simply stay out of what she cannot manage?
The "indisputable fact" is God is light but Jesus is the true light.
As usual, when taken by the ... er ... enthousiasm of her ... mystical insights ... the lady tends to do away with her ... er ... "golden rule": context! So, let's help her put "the true light" in context. Here it is:
4In him [Grk: autô, "the same" viz. the Word] was life, and the life was the light of mankind. 5 And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it.
6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that everyone might believe through him [Grk: di'autou, "through the same" viz. through the Word]. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:4-9 - emphasis by MdS)
Here is the complete list of the verses (16) where the word "light" (Greek φῶς, phōs - G5457) is used in the Gospel of John.
Here is the complete list of the verses (5) where the word "light" is used in the First Epistle of John.
So what is this "light"? It is a metaphor and analogy of everything that is positive (Love, Truth, Life) that only in God has its perfection. As the First Epistle of John puts it in essential words:
God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)
Can we then say that Jesus IS "the true light"? Yes, we can, because he is the Incarnation of God's Eternal Word ...
Nowthe Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only [monogenês], full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. (John 1:14)
... and ...
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form ... (Col 2:9)
MdS
Revelation is above, not against Reason
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
jonny42: Spirit is called "Lord," it is possible to blaspheme the Spirit, Spirit is given divine titles like "Spirit of God."
Well, there's this:
Mark 3: 28 “I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, 29 but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.” 30 He told them this because they were saying, “He’s possessed by an evil spirit.”
And ...
Passage Luke 12: 10 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
So, what we have here is that you can dis Jesus but screw with the Holy Spirit and God loses His sense of humor. How are they interchangeable?
There are a lot of subtle distinctions in the (Greek) language used in these passages.
Essentially, the Holy Spirit is the power and presence of God's call and to blaspheme or speak against the Holy Spirit is to both actively resist and deny the power and presence of God's call.
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.
... This is what Augustine wrote, to his eternal shame ...
“And this,” He [Jesus, according to John 17:3] adds, “is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.” The proper order [sic! LOL! the Augustinian chutzpah!] of the words is, “That they may know Thee and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent, as the only true God.” -- Augustine of Hippo, Homilies on the Gospel of John etc., Ch. XVII, 1-5, Tractate CV, §3 (@ ccel.org)
That little squirmy thing, Augustine, dares to change the order of the words of the Gospel of John, for the simple reason that, otherwise they wouldn't jibe with his "trinitarianism".
*yawn*
"God is light." (1 John 1, 1 John 2)
Jesus: "the true light." (John 1)
I quite understand that the lady may find indisputable facts so boring as to make her *yawn*, when compared to the immediateness of her ... er ... mystical insights ...
... but why doesn't she simply stay out of what she cannot manage?
The "indisputable fact" is God is light but Jesus is the true light.
As usual, when taken by the ... er ... enthousiasm of her ... mystical insights ... the lady tends to do away with her ... er ... "golden rule": context! So, let's help her put "the true light" in context. Here it is:
4In him [Grk: autô, "the same" viz. the Word] was life, and the life was the light of mankind. 5 And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it.
6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that everyone might believe through him [Grk: di'autou, "through the same" viz. through the Word]. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:4-9 - emphasis by MdS)
Here is the complete list of the verses (16) where the word "light" (Greek φῶς, phōs - G5457) is used in the Gospel of John.
Here is the complete list of the verses (5) where the word "light" is used in the First Epistle of John.
So what is this "light"? It is a metaphor and analogy of everything that is positive (Love, Truth, Life) that only in God has its perfection. As the First Epistle of John puts it in essential words:
God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)
Can we then say that Jesus IS "the true light"? Yes, we can, because he is the Incarnation of God's Eternal Word ...
Nowthe Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only [monogenês], full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. (John 1:14)
... and ...
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form ... (Col 2:9)
MdS
Now go ahead and apply all of that to John 17:3.
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.
Poor, poor jlb, who could only manage to skim (poorly) through the first item (a) of MdS' post #448 ...
. . . thoroughly thrash you, perhaps?
LOL! You wish, but ...
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride ...
Yeah, I know that’s not what you said, but I think it’s apropos.
LOL!
With a fancy French expression, jlb tries to cover up the total irrelevance of his comments ...
MdS
Revelation is above, not against Reason
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
... Can we then say that Jesus IS "the true light"? Yes, we can, because he is the Incarnation of God's Eternal Word ...
Nowthe Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only [monogenês], full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. (John 1:14)
... and ...
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form ... (Col 2:9)
Now go ahead and apply all of that to John 17:3.
Why doesn't the lady try (try ...) to apply "all of that" to John 17:3 ...
... AS IS ...
... NOTthe way thatlittle squirmy thing, Augustinedares to change the order of the words of the Gospel of John, to serve his agenda?
MdS
Revelation is above, not against Reason
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
With a fancy French expression,jlb tries to cover up the total irrelevance of his comments . . .
. . . with excessive emoticons, Mario tries to cover up the relevance of jlb’s comments by saying they’re not relevant. Thus far, few people are fooled with multicolored text and unnecessary smiley faces.
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
Why doesn't the lady try (try ...) to apply "all of that" to John 17:3 ...
... AS IS ...
Just AS IS it was done to John 1, 1 John 1, and 1 John 2, starting with...context and...Col 2:9.
... NOTthe way thatlittle squirmy thing, Augustinedares to change the order of the words of the Gospel of John, to serve his agenda?
MdS
John 17:3 does nothing in and of itself to either vindicate or destroy his, er, "agenda."
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.
Why doesn't the lady try (try ...) to apply "all of that" to John 17:3 ...
... then?
MdS
Revelation is above, not against Reason
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
With a fancy French expression, jlb tries to cover up the total irrelevance of his comments ...
. . . with excessive emoticons, Mario tries to cover up the relevance of jlb’s comments by saying they’re not relevant. Thus far, few people are fooled with multicolored text and unnecessary smiley faces.
Why doesn't jlb try (at least try ...) to respond to ALL points (a, b, c and d — in order, bar none ...) of MdS' post #448 ...
“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27) “Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9) “By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6) “Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1) “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38) “For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13) “Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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