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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 7:24PM #51
Blü
Posts: 24,837

57


The concept reallyisn't that hard to grasp. Man is physical (part 1) and man has a spirit (part 2)


How might that explain the Trinity?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 2:42AM #52
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 6, 2012 -- 8:25AM, Rgurley4 wrote:

It is a MYSTERY why the same old folks chat endlessly about the TRINITY aka TRI-UNE GOD aka the 3 -spiritual PERSONS in one.


The real mystery is the desperate defense of such bizarre, unscriptural invention by so many old folk ... Cool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 10:55AM #53
Seefan
Posts: 3,911

Apr 6, 2012 -- 7:24PM, Blü wrote:

  57


The concept reallyisn't that hard to grasp. Man is physical (part 1) and man has a spirit (part 2)


How might that explain the Trinity? 



Well Blu, it doesn't.  But along the lines of what 57 said ...


Man is physical.  Man has a spirit.  Jesus being a special classifcation of human, along with such equals as Abraham, Moses, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, has, through the power of the Holy Spirit, a spirit and soul with much greater capacity then the mere human.  While this does not make Him God it does give Him the God given ability to be able to manifest and reflect the attributes of God.  Jesus and those of equal stature are perfect mirrors of the Divine reflecting what God wants humanity to know about Him in the age presented.  That's the simply truth much of Christianity is unable or unwilling to grasp so they rely upon the concept of the Trinity ...



 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 6:01PM #54
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 7, 2012 -- 2:42AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 6, 2012 -- 8:25AM, Rgurley4 wrote:

It is a MYSTERY why the same old folks chat endlessly about the TRINITY aka TRI-UNE GOD aka the 3 -spiritual PERSONS in one.


The real mystery is the desperate defense of such bizarre, unscriptural invention by so many old folk ... Cool


MdS




I just posted this on The Needs of the Many thread, so I'll be brief. The penalty for sin is death. Jesus died as a substitute for us, playing by the rules, somebody has to die for sin. Jesus has to be God so as to be of such value as to cover the sins of everyone. Jesus has to be a man, because God cannot die. And for this to work, God has to come in separable parts. Why? Because if Jesus had sinned, while being man and God simultaneously, and died, he being tied to God (inseparable) because God is One, All of God would have died.


So the Trinity is a safely valve. If Jesus had sinned, only the Second Person of the Trinity would have died, Father and Son would have remained safe. The separation occurred on the cross when Jesus cried My God, why have you forsaken me? The resurrection showed that Jesus had not sinned, so he himself was not (eternally) subject to death.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 8:37PM #55
Blü
Posts: 24,837

Seefan


While this does not make Him God it does give Him the God given ability to be able to manifest and reflect the attributes of God.  Jesus and those of equal stature are perfect mirrors of the Divine reflecting what God wants humanity to know about Him in the age presented.


A mirror, whether a 'perfect mirror' or not, does nothing by itself, has no light or image or power of its own.  Jesus in the gospels on several occasions attributes all his authorities and powers to Yahweh, saying none of them comes from himself.  So there's something to what you say.


(Jesus denies he's perfect - 'Why do you call me good?  No one is good but God alone.')

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 8:43PM #56
Blü
Posts: 24,837

stardust


The penalty for sin is death.


All creatures above a certain level of complexity die.  It's not, of itself, a penalty.  It antecedes any concept of sin by billions of years.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 8:58PM #57
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,129

stardustpilgrim:  Jesus died as a substitute for us, playing by the rules, somebody has to die for sin.


Die in what sense, 'cause we all do, regardless of our saved nature?


Because if Jesus had sinned


I realize what Christianity says about Jesus being sinless, but unfortunately I have a high resistance to BS.  Jesus sins throughout the entire story, from minor griping to ego-stroking to vandalism to bigotry.  The only way to say the text shows how Jesus was sinless is to close the text and never read it.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 9:00PM #58
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 7, 2012 -- 8:43PM, Blü wrote:


stardust


The penalty for sin is death.


All creatures above a certain level of complexity die.  It's not, of itself, a penalty.  It antecedes any concept of sin by billions of years.




I think I specified on the other thread, the death I'm talking about is separation from God, IOW, spiritual death.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 9:06PM #59
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280

Apr 7, 2012 -- 8:58PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


stardustpilgrim:  Jesus died as a substitute for us, playing by the rules, somebody has to die for sin.


Die in what sense, 'cause we all do, regardless of our saved nature?


Because if Jesus had sinned


I realize what Christianity says about Jesus being sinless, but unfortunately I have a high resistance to BS.  Jesus sins throughout the entire story, from minor griping to ego-stroking to vandalism to bigotry.  The only way to say the text shows how Jesus was sinless is to close the text and never read it.




See recent post #60.


I respect and rather enjoy your creative theology. To sin means to transgress God's Law. Show me in scripture where Jesus transgressed God's law. He disobeyed the traditions of the Pharisees, but he didn't transgress the Law, not once.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 10:39PM #60
Blü
Posts: 24,837

As I just remarked to 57, Jesus expressly denies that he's sinless -


Luke 18:
19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.[”]

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