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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 5:26AM #391
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 6, 2012 -- 12:56PM, jlb32168 wrote:

BTW Blü, what does Peter mean when he says that King David said that he saw Christ in a prophetic vision and that Christ was YHWH?


In case jlb refers to this ...


25 For David says about him, ‘I saw the Lord always in front of me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced; my body also will live in hope, 27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of joy with your presence.’ (Acts 2:25-28; cp. Ps 16:8-11)


... then it would be interesting to know how, according to jlb, the above passage would indicate that "Christ was YHWH" ...


... in case jlb refers to this ...


34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ (Acts 2:34-35; cp. Ps 110:1)


... then he should be informed that the two words that in the English translation are indiscriminately rendered with "lord" (and in the Greek LXX Septuagint with kyrios) are, in the Hebrew text of the Psalm ...


Here is the LORD’s proclamation to my lord ... (Ps 110:1)


... two completely different words:


the former (LORD) is YHWH, the mysterious name of the One and Only God, the Father Almighty ...


the latter (lord) is 'adown, and, as the relevant NET © Note appended to Psalm 110:1 says ...


sn My lord. In the psalm’s original context the speaker is an unidentified prophetic voice in the royal court. In the course of time the psalm is applied to each successive king in the dynasty and ultimately to the ideal Davidic king. NT references to the psalm understand David to be speaking about his “lord,” the Messiah. (See Matt 22:43-45; Mark 12:36-37; Luke 20:42-44; Acts 2:34-35 - bolding by MdS).


... “NT references to the psalm understand David to be speaking about his “lord,” the Messiah.”


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:32AM #392
jlb32168
Posts: 13,339

May 7, 2012 -- 2:15AM, Blü wrote:

I see you saved the best till last.  This is the . .


While I'm flattered with your incessant interest in my person, do you have anything to add to the topic of the thread?


Or shall I infer that these last few posts (one of which seems to have disappeared for some unknown reason [more snickers]) of a distinctly personal nature indicate you’ve conceded that you cannot address scriptures that seem to give a message contra your own?


I suspect that this is the case because if you were to tackle them:


A)  you would have to interpret the texts so that they comport with your arguments. 


B) In doing that, you’d be acknowledging that your opponent can do the same with scriptures that you present.


C) That, of course, would place you in a terribly awkward position since you have just accused someone else of imposing his assumptions on the text instead of deriving the claim from the text.  


D) Furthermore, your embarrassment would only be exacerbated by the fact that you’ve hurled reckless accusations that others don’t want to “come to grips with simple English” – all while you ignore simple English – such as Peter’s speech about David, Thomas’ “My Lord and my God” and John’s “the Word was God . . . and the Word (which is God) became Flesh [Christ, that is]”


And I’m not too sure I can concern myself with your poor opinion of my debating abilities since you’ve failed to address one scriptural text that speaks contra your particular argument – preferring instead to merely repeat your interpretation of specific verses over and over while dodging everything else. [snicker, snicker]

Moderated by Adelphe on May 09, 2012 - 11:42AM
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:44AM #393
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 7, 2012 -- 6:32AM, jlb32168 wrote:

... your [Blü's] embarrassment would only be exacerbated by the fact that you’ve hurled reckless accusations that others don’t want to “come to grips with simple English” – all while you ignore simple English – such as Peter’s speech about David ...


... it will be interesting to see if, when and how jlb "comes to grips" with MdS' post #393 ... Cool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 6:49AM #394
jlb32168
Posts: 13,339

May 7, 2012 -- 5:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... then it would be interesting to know how, according to jlb, the above passage would indicate that "Christ was YHWH" . . .


I thank you for catching my failure to site another Psalm.  I sometimes write faster than I think, Mario, and here is the clarification.  Peter cites several Psalms here and I failed to mention Psalm 16, specifically verse 8.  Peter is citing the LXX version, which reads:


For David speaketh concerning him [Christ, that is], 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:'


The Hebrew translation of the same verse reads, “I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.” and as I am sure you are aware, the word “Lord” in all majuscules is the Tetragrammaton YHWH, in English Bibles.


Clearly Peter is applying the Tetragrammaton to Christ    

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 8:56AM #395
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

May 6, 2012 -- 12:56PM, jlb32168 wrote:

BTW Blü, what does Peter mean when he says that King David said that he saw Christ in a prophetic vision and that Christ was YHWH?


May 7, 2012 -- 5:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

In case jlb refers to this ...


25 For David says about him, ‘I saw the Lord always in front of me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced; my body also will live in hope, 27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of joy with your presence.’ (Acts 2:25-28; cp. Ps 16:8-11)


... then it would be interesting to know how, according to jlb, the above passage would indicate that "Christ was YHWH" ...


May 7, 2012 -- 6:49AM, jlb32168 wrote:

... here is the clarification.  Peter cites several Psalms here [actually two, Ps 16:8-11; Ps 110:1] and I failed to mention Psalm 16, specifically verse 8.  Peter is citing the LXX version, which reads:


For David speaketh concerning him [Christ, that is], 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:' [Acts 2:25 KJV]


The Hebrew translation of the same verse [this must be an inadvertent blunder: presumably jlb means "Hebrew original" ...] reads, “I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.” [Ps 16:8 KJV] and as I am sure you are aware, the word “Lord” in all majuscules is the Tetragrammaton YHWH, in English Bibles.


jlb has managed to turn the verse upside-down. 


Here is a couple of relevant commentaries.


The scripture he [Peter] refers to is that of David (Ps. 16:8–11), which, though in part applicable to David as a saint, yet refers chiefly to Jesus Christ, of whom David was a type. Here is, First, The text quoted at large (v. 25–28), for it was all fulfilled in him [Jesus Christ], and shows us, 1. The constant regard that our Lord Jesus had to his Father in his whole undertaking: I foresaw the Lord before me continually. He set before him his Father’s glory as his end in all-for he saw that his sufferings would redound abundantly to the honour of God, and would issue in his own joy; these were set before him, and these he had an eye to, in all he did and suffered; and with the prospect of these he was borne up and carried on, Jn. 13:31, 32; 17:4, 5. 2. The assurance he had of his Father’s presence and power going along with him: "He is on my right hand, the hand of action, strengthening, guiding, and upholding that, that I should not be moved, nor driven off from my undertaking, notwithstanding the hardships I must undergo.’’ This was an article of the covenant of redemption (Ps. 89:21), With him my hand shall be established, my arm also shall strengthen him; and therefore he is confident the work shall not miscarry in his hand. If God be at our right hand we shall not be moved. -- Matthew Henry, Commentary on Acts 2, @ blueletterbible.org


I foresaw the Lord always before my face; Christ always had Jehovah in view throughout the whole of his life; and in his last moments he had respect unto the glory of his perfections, as the ultimate end of his obedience and sufferings; and to his purposes, council, and covenant, which were to be accomplished by him; and to his will and command in preaching the Gospel, working miracles, going about to do good, in obeying the precept, and bearing the penalty of the law; as well as to his promises, and his power to assist, support, and preserve him, as man and Mediator: for he is on my right hand; which expresses his nearness to him, his presence with him, his readiness to assist him, and his protection of him; as if he was his second that stood by him, to take his part, and, if need be, to take up his cause, and defend him from his enemies; see Psalm 109:31. that I should not be moved; from his station, place, and duty; from the cause he was engaged in, so as to relinquish it; or with the fear of men, or fury of devils, or wrath of God, whilst he was doing and suffering, according to the will of God. -- Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, Acts 2, @ gill.biblecommenter.com


Clearly Peter is applying the Tetragrammaton to Christ.


Clearly Peter is NOT applying the Tetragrammaton to Christ, BUT to the One and Only to Whom it belongs: the One and Only who is a se [#], YHWH God, the Father Almighty ... Cool


MdS


[#] Perhaps jlb will want to try and defeat the reductio as absurdum that he can find at the online article Trinity and Aseity, @ maverickphilosopher.blogspot.it

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:20AM #396
jonny42
Posts: 6,713

May 7, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Blü wrote:


jonny


As if your interpretation of the Bible has any meaning to atheists like yourself


We have many ancient religious texts.  The bible is one of them.


With the help of trustworthy translators I can read the words of any of them as well as the next man.





And I can read the Koran.  But since it has no value to me (regardless of how it's interpreted),  I would not stoop to engaging in debate as to what Muhammad meant and telling Muslims that I was defending the Koran.   


   

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:34AM #397
Blü
Posts: 24,935

jonny


And I can read the Koran.  But since it has no value to me (regardless of how it's interpreted),  I would not stoop to engaging in debate as to what Muhammad meant and telling Muslims that I was defending the Koran.   


Plainly that's a matter for you.


  

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:43AM #398
Ed.W
Posts: 9,436

May 7, 2012 -- 3:51AM, Blü wrote:


Ed


You've expressly adopted jlb's position,  It follows you're as silly as he is, and conversation is fruitless.





Maybe you were being prophetic when you mentioned "slunking"away... you're not only an Atheist, but you're a doggone clairvoyant!




I haven't adopted JLB's position, he's just right.  And if you're ever right I'll be glad to say so.


So you admit by your refusal to answer that the claim that the RYR discourse explicitly says Jesus is not God and/or Jesus is not Good calls for a conclusion and is not necessarily in the text?


If you're married to that conclusion that's another thing, but you do admit it's a conclusion?






‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:43AM #399
jonny42
Posts: 6,713

May 7, 2012 -- 9:34AM, Blü wrote:


jonny


And I can read the Koran.  But since it has no value to me (regardless of how it's interpreted),  I would not stoop to engaging in debate as to what Muhammad meant and telling Muslims that I was defending the Koran.   


Plainly that's a matter for you.


  




It is.  I find it to be grossly disingenuous. 


And plainly this sort of practice is fine by you.  

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:47AM #400
Blü
Posts: 24,935

jonny


And plainly this sort of practice is fine by you


Yes, it's fine by me. I can read English.


It's also the reason Bnet has a Discuss Christianity board.


They have a Discuss Islam board too, should I want it.

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