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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 11:14AM #11
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

Apr 5, 2012 -- 10:21AM, Blü wrote:



Well, that's the point.  The Catholic Encyclopedia says you're wrong - see the OP quotes.





The encyclopedia does not say that the trinity is not reasonable; it says that the maximum extent that "reason" can be applied to it is to say whether or not the Trinity is intrinsically impossible.


Use your Reason to show that the Trinity is impossible.  Period.  If you can, use natural reason to explain why God cannot be Triune, then let's hear it.



As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid.




On the latter emphasis, IOW, that you can't fully understand it or that you can't conceive it is not a valid objection on the grounds of reason. 



Please learn to read a more carefully.  The most tiresome thing of responding to you is having to explain to you what you read.  The second most tiresome thing is after explaining it to you to have you still insist that you are the one reading it correctly and the rest of the world is not.


As an atheist, you should not need the Bible to agree with you.  You may use it as a doorstop, kindling, toilet paper, etc.





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 3:15PM #12
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Blü


Apr 5, 2012 -- 1:24AM, Blü wrote:

The Catholic Encyclopedia tells me -


The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. -- The Blessed Trinity > Dogma of the Trinity, @ newadvent.org/cathen


Part of the exposition that follows translates as -

it's termed a 'mystery'
because human reason can't derive it
so it can only be known through revelation
and reason can make no cogent demonstration of it after it's revealed.

Is that not just a pretty way of admitting that the notion founders on the rock of reason? That the whole thing's a total nonsense?


That is not the main problem with the "trinity". Not, anyway, if one affirms that ...


Revelation can be above, never against Reason


... as Thomas Hobbes does, and I with him.


Suppose that, instead of ...


“Listen, Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!” (Deut 6:4)


... we read in the Scripture something like this...


“Listen, Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one ... yet te Lord is also three!” [#]


We would have to admit that the "trinity" is an unambiguous revelation found in the Scripture and, if we believed (as I do) that "Revelation can be above, never against Reason", we would have to try and make (some) sense of it.


The problem is that we find no such statement [#], so all claims that the "trinity" is "found in the Scripture" are nothing but retrojections of apologists of the "trinity", that they only "see" there through their ... trinitarian specs ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 3:37PM #13
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 5, 2012 -- 7:24AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 5, 2012 -- 1:24AM, Blü wrote:

Part of the exposition that follows [the opening statement of the Catholic Encyclopedia's article The Blessed Trinity, @ newadvent.org/cathen] translates as -

it's termed a 'mystery'
because human reason can't derive it
so it can only be known through revelation ...


That's what "mystery" means in Christianity.  Not that "gee, we just don't know how it's so--it's a mystery" but that "it's revealed"--a "top down" approach rather than "bottom up."


[pl]


[Blü] ... and reason can make no cogent demonstration of it after it's revealed.

Um...


Now I find that hard to believe coming from a Christian encyclopedia...


I s'pose the key to this statement is your prior "part of the exposition that follows translates as"...


The poor lady seems blissfully unaware that ...


IF "reason [could] make [a] cogent demonstration [of the trinity]"


THEN there would be no need for it "only be known through revelation"


... of course IF it WAS part of Revelation ...


... which it is NOT ...


... poor poor lady ... EmbarassedCryCool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 3:49PM #14
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:



... of course IF it WAS part of Revelation ...


... which it is NOT ...





If you don't know what divine revelation is you could just ask.... or again click on the link:


Divine Revelation:  Revelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature.




Notice it said to "a" creature; not necessarily all creatures.  (All we really know about Grace is that some get it and some don't.)

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 4:09PM #15
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Ed.W


Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:49PM, Ed.W wrote:

Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... of course IF it [the "trinity"] WAS part of Revelation ...


... which it is NOT ...


If you don't know what divine revelation is you could just ask.... or again click on the link:


Revelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature. [Catholic Encyclopedia > Revelation > Meaning of Revelation]


Notice it said to "a" creature; not necessarily all creatures.  (All we really know about Grace is that some get it and some don't.)


It would be extremely entertaining if Ed ... er ... revealed to us all how God has revealed to him the "mystery of the trinity" "through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature" ...


... but instead, probably, he is simply under the delusion that he "sees" the "trinity" in the Scripture through a "special grace", rather than through ... trinitarian specs ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 4:28PM #16
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

Mario, one does not need the Bible to be aware of the Trinity.   However I argue it from scripture as you are not going to accept my own assertion as to its truth.


Moderated by rangerken on Jun 12, 2012 - 12:50AM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 4:30PM #17
Adelphe
Posts: 28,705

Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

The poor lady seems blissfully unaware that ...


IF "reason [could] make [a] cogent demonstration [of the trinity]"


THEN there would be no need for it "only be known through revelation"


... of course IF it WAS part of Revelation ...


... which it is NOT ...


... poor poor lady ... EmbarassedCryCool


MdS




Speaking of "poor"...


Your understanding of both Scripture and Christian doctrine would be it.  Add "very."


If you knew either, you'd know that reason gets you as far as the fact that there is a God.  Period.


But as you don't know either we can't expect much more than the "poor" "reasoning" "skills" above.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:27PM #18
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Ed.W


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:28PM, Ed.W wrote:

... one does not need the Bible to be aware of the Trinity.


How ...er ... interesting, how ... revealing ...


[Ed.W] However I argue it from scripture as you are not going to accept my own assertion as to its truth.


Have you argued it already? If so, I'm eagerly awaiting for a reference, because your scriptural argument must have escaped me ... Tongue Out


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:39PM #19
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Adelphe wrote:

Your understanding of both Scripture and Christian doctrine would be it [poor].  Add "very."


If you knew either, you'd know that reason gets you as far as the fact that there is a God.  Period.


Really?


And how, pray tell, would "Scripture and Christian doctrine" help to "know that reason gets you as far as the fact that there is a God"?


Also, assuming that "reason gets you as far as the fact that there is a God", does this "as far as" mean that reson does not "get you as far as" the  ... er ... "blessed trinity"?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:30PM #20
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

You guys talk of Reason as if it will decide all matters, you put Reason on a pedestal as if it's diametrically opposed to matters of Faith.


"Reason" is subjective.  "Revelation" is definitive. 


The same laws of thought rule the philosopher's reasoning and the peasant's, but the latter's conclusion will only be fairly certain when its matter comes within his usual cognizance. A man can reason well about familiar matter; but, unless he has explicitly examined the illative process, he will hesitate and err when dealing with new subject-matter. The mistakes of inventors like Newton and Leibniz are very instructive on this point. We are all, then, as Newman put it, more or less departmental; we reason with unequal facility on different subjects.


Hence most atheists will probably "reason" there is no God at all, while a theist will "reason" there is a God.  The Atheist believes he has reasoned well, and answered once for all a vital question.


A lot of people reason themselves into many a dark night.  In fact, Reason is always going to have an underlying bias driving the conclusion.  Layers and layers of bias to reinforce the more obvious bias lest an "honest" reasoner detect the obvious bias and get rid of it, the hidden bias will make sure that you choose the answer you were going to choose anyway.


Or if you think that's crazy--layers and layers of the fix being in--the Catholic Encyclopedia puts it thus:


The known is never completely out of resonance with our volitions and emotions. To affirm anything, or to reason about a subject, is at once to take up a position before it. This is especially true of moral and religious matter, and indeed the emotional genesis of ethical convictions has often been urged as a proof of their irrationality.


Therefore, ironically, the first declaration of the new proselyte is finally, "I know nothing (but Christ and Him crucified)."



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