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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 2:10PM #561
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"Quite a bit different (now) from this:


"It is the aim, goal, purpose and intent of the institution to make the world catholic""



NO it is NOT. In no material way are those statements in coinflict. They express the same idea, the same thought, they are in terms of meaning, equilvant.


Soul is not life. "Soul" (whatever that is) is something you cannot define, produce, of even find secondary evidence for.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 2:12PM #562
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"You said, "The HRCC advising the rest of us on morality is rather like the Mafia’s advice on proper business practices. They work all right. But most us have no interest in following them" which is a silly, INvalid, UNsound "argument.""


No, it is not. Taking business advice from crooks and taking child raising advice from pedophiles are much the same thing.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 2:28PM #563
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

May 17, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Paladinsf wrote:


"You said, "The HRCC advising the rest of us on morality is rather like the Mafia’s advice on proper business practices. They work all right. But most us have no interest in following them" which is a silly, INvalid, UNsound "argument.""


No, it is not. Taking business advice from crooks and taking child raising advice from pedophiles are much the same thing.




You are absolutely right Paladin


Christianity as a whole, is not a paragon of morality.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 9:17AM #564
jlb32168
Posts: 13,341

May 17, 2012 -- 2:10PM, Paladinsf wrote:

Soul is not life. "Soul" (whatever that is) is something you cannot define, produce, of even find secondary evidence for.


Perhaps that is the way you define "soul" Paladin, but for the Christian, the two aren't seperated and if they are all you have is a corpse.


May 17, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Paladinsf wrote:

No, it is not. Taking business advice from crooks and taking child raising advice from pedophiles are much the same thing.


I’m sorry, but it is an illogical argument, Paladin, specifically a Tu quoque argument.  First of all, not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile and suggesting otherwise is libelous.  Secondly, you can’t discredit an opponent's position by asserting that opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with his/her position.  Were Charles Manson to say, “Killing pregnant women and their friends is heinous”, he’d still be right.


It’s the same as saying, “Accepting the opinion of atheists on freedom and human rights is ridiculous given the history of atheists in power over the last century”.  You’d shriek like a banshee under the window sill if somebody proffered the above in good faith.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 7:58AM #565
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

May 18, 2012 -- 9:17AM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 2:10PM, Paladinsf wrote:

Soul is not life. "Soul" (whatever that is) is something you cannot define, produce, of even find secondary evidence for.


Perhaps that is the way you define "soul" Paladin, but for the Christian, the two aren't seperated and if they are all you have is a corpse.


May 17, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Paladinsf wrote:

No, it is not. Taking business advice from crooks and taking child raising advice from pedophiles are much the same thing.


I’m sorry, but it is an illogical argument, Paladin, specifically a Tu quoque argument.  First of all, not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile and suggesting otherwise is libelous.  Secondly, you can’t discredit an opponent's position by asserting that opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with his/her position.  Were Charles Manson to say, “Killing pregnant women and their friends is heinous”, he’d still be right.


It’s the same as saying, “Accepting the opinion of atheists on freedom and human rights is ridiculous given the history of atheists in power over the last century”.  You’d shriek like a banshee under the window sill if somebody proffered the above in good faith.




Thanks, jlb.


That (should) take care of that.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 8:29AM #566
Ed.W
Posts: 9,441

May 18, 2012 -- 9:17AM, jlb32168 wrote:



May 17, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Paladinsf wrote:

No, it is not. Taking business advice from crooks and taking child raising advice from pedophiles are much the same thing.


I’m sorry, but it is an illogical argument, Paladin, specifically a Tu quoque argument.  First of all, not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile and suggesting otherwise is libelous.  Secondly, you can’t discredit an opponent's position by asserting that opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with his/her position.  Were Charles Manson to say, “Killing pregnant women and their friends is heinous”, he’d still be right.


It’s the same as saying, “Accepting the opinion of atheists on freedom and human rights is ridiculous given the history of atheists in power over the last century”.  You’d shriek like a banshee under the window sill if somebody proffered the above in good faith.




Thanks, jlb.



 You answer the Tu quoque argument with the El Touche  argument?  Bravo.


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  May 19, 2012 - 7:11PM #567
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"First of all, not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile and suggesting otherwise is libelous.  Secondly, you can’t discredit an opponent's position by asserting that opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with his/her position."



More of your religious gobblegook. (But then but for that crap you would have nothing to post at all.)


I NEVER said EVERY catholic was a pedophile. I said taking child-raising advice from one was foolish. There ARE (despite your attempt to obscure that fact) there ARE right now as we speak pedophile priests at work within the catholic church. Any one of them may at any moment be asked and be expected to give sound advice on child raising. (Why ask a celibate about such matters is another question.)


So it is not simply possible but likely one or more believers are taking advice from a pedophile. And that practice is very similar to asking the mafia how to run a business.


But the much more important point is that this is the HRCC we are referencing. THIS institution claims to be the repository of the perfect unalterable inherent word of the one true god. ITS interpretation of that word (as some among us have conceded) its interpretation is perfect in every way, incapable or error and EXCLUSIVELY so.


When such absurd and obviously ridiculous clams are made is it entirely fair to reject the WHOLE mythology and the institution claiming to interpret it based to acts of a few - or ONE.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  May 20, 2012 - 10:19AM #568
Adelphe
Posts: 28,707

May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:


"First of all, not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile and suggesting otherwise is libelous.  Secondly, you can’t discredit an opponent's position by asserting that opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with his/her position."



More of your religious gobblegook. (But then but for that crap you would have nothing to post at all.)


I NEVER said EVERY catholic was a pedophile. I said taking child-raising advice from one was foolish. There ARE (despite your attempt to obscure that fact) there ARE right now as we speak pedophile priests at work within the catholic church. Any one of them may at any moment be asked and be expected to give sound advice on child raising. (Why ask a celibate about such matters is another question.)


So it is not simply possible but likely one or more believers are taking advice from a pedophile. And that practice is very similar to asking the mafia how to run a business.


But the much more important point is that this is the HRCC we are referencing. THIS institution claims to be the repository of the perfect unalterable inherent word of the one true god. ITS interpretation of that word (as some among us have conceded) its interpretation is perfect in every way, incapable or error and EXCLUSIVELY so.


When such absurd and obviously ridiculous clams are made is it entirely fair to reject the WHOLE mythology and the institution claiming to interpret it based to acts of a few - or ONE.




Simply put, My Militant Yet Mistaken Middle-Eastern Metrist, the truth of Christianity's claims does not rest on the character of the one advancing them.


Let me repeat:  the truth of Christianity's claims does not rest on the character of the one advancing them.


Once again, in more generic terms:  the truth of B does not rest on the character of A.


To argue so is fallacious.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  May 20, 2012 - 5:10PM #569
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

"Once again, in more generic terms:  the truth of B does not rest on the character of A."


UNLESS A asserts that it has the absolute truth w/o error or possibility error and holds such Truth exclusively. Then can one can indeed question why holding such "Truth" does not produce perfect beings.


And since it OBVIOUS simply proclaiming this stuff does NOTHING to improve one's morality - a fact beyond dispute and already conceded - in the face of that fact the mythology is FALLICIOUS since it clearly does NOT do what it claims to do.


 



The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 5:04PM #570
jlb32168
Posts: 13,341

May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

More of your religious gobblegook. (But then but for that crap you would have nothing to post at all.)


While I’m convinced of your expertise in crap posting (as your latest entry so clearly demonstrates), I’ll assure you that not everyone in the HRCC is a pedophile – your protests to the contrary notwithstanding.


May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

I NEVER said EVERY catholic was a pedophile.


You don’t actually have to say it, Paladin.  You attempted to use guilt by association, that is, some are pedophiles; therefore, none are to be heard since all are instrinsically tainted by association with pedophilia.


May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

I said taking child-raising advice from one was foolish.


And that’s simply a stupid thing to say because not having children doesn’t render one incompetent as far as raising children any more than having children makes one an expert.   In fact, the exact opposite can be true, but you already knew that.


May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

So it is not simply possible but likely one or more believers are taking advice from a pedophile. And that practice is very similar to asking the mafia how to run a business.


And had you actually been as specific, then I wouldn’t have commented; however, you made blanket statements and I called you on the carpet for it.


You obviously don’t like that.  Of course, no one likes it when they make blanket statements in attempts at guilt by association and get caught.  That’s why I stopped doing it a long, long time ago.


May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

But the much more important point is that this is the HRCC we are referencing. THIS institution claims to be the repository of the perfect unalterable inherent word of the one true god. ITS interpretation of that word (as some among us have conceded) its interpretation is perfect in every way, incapable or error and EXCLUSIVELY so.


No – that’s your opinion (read “straw-man misrepresentation”) of what they claim.  


May 19, 2012 -- 7:11PM, Paladinsf wrote:

When such absurd and obviously ridiculous clams are made is it entirely fair to reject the WHOLE mythology and the institution claiming to interpret it based to acts of a few - or ONE.


The RCC claims are that she contains the fullness of God’s revelation to man.  Since you don’t know whether or not God exists, you can’t make a determination of the truth of that claim.


But what does that have to do with the Trinity?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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