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Switch to Forum Live View How do you know whose claim is true?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:27PM #1
JAstor
Posts: 3,957





IBN: It is often claimed by no other than the Jews on these boards that the author of the Qur'an had the Bible open in front of him and he copied the stories. But when there is some difference in the stories, the claim is that he did not copy them properly and, therefore, made mistakes (errors) in copying. Both claims cannot be true at the same time. Which one claim is true in your scholarship of the Qur'an?  

JAstor: In many cases it's very easy to figure out. The early Christian writers were no friends of the Jews, yet they had in their hands the same Bible ("Old Testament")that the Jews had. It would be intellectually dishonest to say that the Christians were in cahoots with the Jews to discredit Islam, which came about 500  years later. Hence, the first thing is to see if it is the same in the Jewish and Christian versions, which it almost invariably is.

IBN: Are you sure? There is no mention of "Paradise" in the Jewish Bible but Jesus talked about the Paradise and it is mentioned in the New Testament, the Christian Bible just as it is mentioned in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is easy to figure out that the narrative about Paradise had been omitted from the Jewish Bible when it was re-written but the belief about Paradise had not yet completely disappeared from the Jewish community in Madina 1400 years. As I said earlier, the Qur'an is not in error but it clarifies the differences in belief between the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, Christians and Muslims agree about there being Paradise and today's Jews are the odd one out of the three so called Abrahamic faiths. I hope rocketjsquirrel will figure it out too.   



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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:33PM #2
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:27PM, JAstor wrote:







IBN: It is often claimed by no other than the Jews on these boards that the author of the Qur'an had the Bible open in front of him and he copied the stories. But when there is some difference in the stories, the claim is that he did not copy them properly and, therefore, made mistakes (errors) in copying. Both claims cannot be true at the same time. Which one claim is true in your scholarship of the Qur'an?  

JAstor: In many cases it's very easy to figure out. The early Christian writers were no friends of the Jews, yet they had in their hands the same Bible ("Old Testament")that the Jews had. It would be intellectually dishonest to say that the Christians were in cahoots with the Jews to discredit Islam, which came about 500  years later. Hence, the first thing is to see if it is the same in the Jewish and Christian versions, which it almost invariably is.

IBN: Are you sure? There is no mention of "Paradise" in the Jewish Bible but Jesus talked about the Paradise and it is mentioned in the New Testament, the Christian Bible just as it is mentioned in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is easy to figure out that the narrative about Paradise had been omitted from the Jewish Bible when it was re-written but the belief about Paradise had not yet completely disappeared from the Jewish community in Madina 1400 years. As I said earlier, the Qur'an is not in error but it clarifies the differences in belief between the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, Christians and Muslims agree about there being Paradise and today's Jews are the odd one out of the three so called Abrahamic faiths. I hope rocketjsquirrel will figure it out too.   





So your argument of two votes to one vote was not good enough this time?

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:34PM #3
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:27PM, JAstor wrote:

 IBN: Are you sure? There is no mention of "Paradise" in the Jewish Bible but Jesus talked about the Paradise and it is mentioned in the New Testament, the Christian Bible just as it is mentioned in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is easy to figure out that the narrative about Paradise had been omitted from the Jewish Bible when it was re-written but the belief about Paradise had not yet completely disappeared from the Jewish community in Madina 1400 years. As I said earlier, the Qur'an is not in error but it clarifies the differences in belief between the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, Christians and Muslims agree about there being Paradise and today's Jews are the odd one out of the three so called Abrahamic faiths. I hope rocketjsquirrel will figure it out too.   




Ibn,


The Torah begins (chapter 2 and 3) with humans in Paradise (called Gan Aiden, the Garden of Eden). So I am not sure what you are referring to. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:39PM #4
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:33PM, Ibn wrote:

So your argument of two votes to one vote was not good enough this time?


See previous post. 


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:39PM #5
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,594

JAstor


Save your breath, He is not referring to anything at all.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:42PM #6
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:34PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:27PM, JAstor wrote:

 IBN: Are you sure? There is no mention of "Paradise" in the Jewish Bible but Jesus talked about the Paradise and it is mentioned in the New Testament, the Christian Bible just as it is mentioned in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is easy to figure out that the narrative about Paradise had been omitted from the Jewish Bible when it was re-written but the belief about Paradise had not yet completely disappeared from the Jewish community in Madina 1400 years. As I said earlier, the Qur'an is not in error but it clarifies the differences in belief between the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, Christians and Muslims agree about there being Paradise and today's Jews are the odd one out of the three so called Abrahamic faiths. I hope rocketjsquirrel will figure it out too.   




Ibn,


The Torah begins (chapter 2 and 3) with humans in Paradise (called Gan Aiden, the Garden of Eden). So I am not sure what you are referring to. 



Ask rocketjsquirrel which Paradise he was talking about as error in the Qur'an that has led us to this discussion.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 4:44PM #7
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:42PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:34PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 3, 2012 -- 4:27PM, JAstor wrote:

 IBN: Are you sure? There is no mention of "Paradise" in the Jewish Bible but Jesus talked about the Paradise and it is mentioned in the New Testament, the Christian Bible just as it is mentioned in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is easy to figure out that the narrative about Paradise had been omitted from the Jewish Bible when it was re-written but the belief about Paradise had not yet completely disappeared from the Jewish community in Madina 1400 years. As I said earlier, the Qur'an is not in error but it clarifies the differences in belief between the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, Christians and Muslims agree about there being Paradise and today's Jews are the odd one out of the three so called Abrahamic faiths. I hope rocketjsquirrel will figure it out too.   




Ibn,


The Torah begins (chapter 2 and 3) with humans in Paradise (called Gan Aiden, the Garden of Eden). So I am not sure what you are referring to. 



Ask rocketjsquirrel which Paradise he was talking about as error in the Qur'an that has led us to this discussion.




Why don't you give me a link or a brief summary.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 5:01PM #8
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,594

Since Ibn doesn't even know what a Jew is, it is unlikely he can formulate an answer to the question. However, the passage of the Qur'an refers to heaven (the world to come) not the garden of eden from which Adam and Eve emigrated. The passage states that which is contrary to Jewish thought, beliefs, and understanding. This is something that happens now and again in the Qur'an. Ibn asked for me to point to examples of that over at the DI board. I thought he wanted to discuss, why the Qur'an was written in a way which mischaracterizes Jewish belief and the Jewish people or what the historic and present day effects of this phenomena were/are. He did not. He merely wanted to insist that the Qur'an is right and divine.  


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 5:05PM #9
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 3, 2012 -- 5:01PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Since Ibn doesn't even know what a Jew is, it is unlikely he can formulate an answer to the question. However, the passage of the Qur'an refers to heaven (the world to come) not the garden of eden from which Adam and Eve emigrated. The passage states that which is contrary to Jewish thought, beliefs, and understanding. This is something that happens now and again in the Qur'an. Ibn asked for me to point to examples of that over at the DI board. I thought he wanted to discuss, why the Qur'an was written in a way which mischaracterizes Jewish belief and the Jewish people or what the historic and present day effects of this phenomena were/are. He did not. He merely wanted to insist that the Qur'an is right and divine.  



Can you provide the quote then?


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 5:33PM #10
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,594

JASTOR


Here it is:


[2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.


Ibn will now tell you the true meaning of this passage. All hail Ibn. Smile

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