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Switch to Forum Live View How do you know whose claim is true?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 4:56PM #31
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:04PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Please prove to me with recourse to reliable scholarly reference that the Qur'án is a text based on the Bible.



What do you mean? It quotes biblical stories and passages left and right. Most of them it got right. Just not all. 


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:04PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Muhammad was inventive for sure. He openly disagreed on many points of doctrine and history with both the Christians and the Jews. But there's simply no objective evidence to suggest that the Qur'ánic deviations from the Bible stories are due to ignorance or careless plagiarism



Well, the points above are pretty clear about Ezra, Haman and Ishmael. He or whoever wrote the Quran clearly was ignorant. 


And I don't understand your position. Do you believe Muhammed was infallible? That he couldn't make a mistake?


I know you're not Muslim, so I'm surprised you seem to believe so. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:22PM #32
browbeaten
Posts: 3,230

Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:47PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:07PM, browbeaten wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:04PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:18PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 2:58PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Come on! The Christians consider their Bible inerrant and they regard the Old Testament as a veritable history book. No scholarly historian does. If anyone, the Christians do not qualify as objective referees on the matter. That's a ridiculous argument.



This is irrelevant. The historicity of the Bible is a separate argument. This is about ascertaining from extant texts which one is original and which one was changed.



The historicity of the Bible stories is very relevant when discussing which account is the "correct" one. I don't give two hoots as to which account is the more ancient one since many Biblical stories are rooted in more ancient versions. My point is that the Bible is not a history text book. Neither is the Qur'án. Please prove to me with recourse to reliable scholarly reference that the Qur'án is a text based on the Bible. Please prove some minimal scholarship and avoid, at the outset, from making any reference to Christian apologist "scholars" hiding under pseudonyms such as Gerd Puin and Christoph Luxenberg.


Muhammad was inventive for sure. He openly disagreed on many points of doctrine and history with both the Christians and the Jews. But there's simply no objective evidence to suggest that the Qur'ánic deviations from the Bible stories are due to ignorance or careless plagiarism, as convenient as such a state of play would be for a non-Muslim. There are only claims to that effect which are usually propounded by somewhat unscholarly commentators that are either known apologists for other religions or otherwise emotionally positioned against Islam.


Kind regards,


Wabbit




Simply put, did Muhammad have both the Tanach and the NT at his disposal, if not open in front of him when writing the Qur'an?


Simply put, Muhammad did not write the Qur'an.




Muhammad WROTE down what was recited to him from Gabriel who supposedly got it directly from Allah.  Since nobody every knew or saw Gabriel, the only person with a physical attachment to the Qur'an was Mohammad.  He wrote everything down, did he not?  Why quibble the semantics, rather that argue the point I was making?


And anyway, since Muhammad could not read or write, I'm surprised he was able to formulate the written word.




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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:59PM #33
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


Everyone has a bias. My bias is that I would rather have my faith accurately portrayed by others. Mohammed DID NOT do so.


Did Jesus portray your faith accurately?


If yes, why did Jews try to have him crucified?


If no, did he not read the same faith books?


I have no doubt that the Jews did not accept both Jesus and Muhammad because they both criticised the Jews for not following Jewish faith properly and deviating from the original true faith of Moses. 


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

The question up for discussion is “Why is Judaism not portrayed accurately in the Qur'an?”


I don't think Judaism is even mentioned in the Qur'an; there is no question of the Qur'an portraying Judaism inaccurately. The original faith of Abraham and Moses is submitting to G-d by obeying His Commands. This has been portrayed accurately in the Qur'an.


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I have checked a number of translations, they are all about the same and each and everyone of them reflects the same mis-statements.


1. there is absolutely nothing in the text which restricts the characterization contained in the quoted passages to Median Jews and Christians



You quoted verse 2:111 of the Qur'an:


[2.111] And they say: None shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.


Why would you Jews think that the verse is about you Jews today when you have never said, "none shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or a Christian"?


The last part of the verse is addressed to Muhammad that he should say to them (who are saying to him so) to bring their proof if they are truthful. I am pretty sure Muhammad did follow the Command in the verse and they could not produce any proof.


If Muslims are not asking the Jews today to bring their proof, why is rocketjsquirrel so upset about powerful terrorist Jews of 1400 years ago in Madina being taken to task? 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:09PM #34
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


Everyone has a bias. My bias is that I would rather have my faith accurately portrayed by others. Mohammed DID NOT do so.


Did Jesus portray your faith accurately?


If yes, why did Jews try to have him crucified?


If no, did he not read the same faith books?


I have no doubt that the Jews did not accept both Jesus and Muhammad because they both criticised the Jews for not following Jewish faith properly and deviating from the original true faith of Moses.



Actually, in rejecting their claims to divinity, new revelation and change of laws the Jews were fulfilling Deuteronomy 13:2. 


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:29PM #35
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:47PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:07PM, browbeaten wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 4:04PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 3:18PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 2:58PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Come on! The Christians consider their Bible inerrant and they regard the Old Testament as a veritable history book. No scholarly historian does. If anyone, the Christians do not qualify as objective referees on the matter. That's a ridiculous argument.



This is irrelevant. The historicity of the Bible is a separate argument. This is about ascertaining from extant texts which one is original and which one was changed.



The historicity of the Bible stories is very relevant when discussing which account is the "correct" one. I don't give two hoots as to which account is the more ancient one since many Biblical stories are rooted in more ancient versions. My point is that the Bible is not a history text book. Neither is the Qur'án. Please prove to me with recourse to reliable scholarly reference that the Qur'án is a text based on the Bible. Please prove some minimal scholarship and avoid, at the outset, from making any reference to Christian apologist "scholars" hiding under pseudonyms such as Gerd Puin and Christoph Luxenberg.


Muhammad was inventive for sure. He openly disagreed on many points of doctrine and history with both the Christians and the Jews. But there's simply no objective evidence to suggest that the Qur'ánic deviations from the Bible stories are due to ignorance or careless plagiarism, as convenient as such a state of play would be for a non-Muslim. There are only claims to that effect which are usually propounded by somewhat unscholarly commentators that are either known apologists for other religions or otherwise emotionally positioned against Islam.


Kind regards,


Wabbit




Simply put, did Muhammad have both the Tanach and the NT at his disposal, if not open in front of him when writing the Qur'an?


Simply put, Muhammad did not write the Qur'an.


Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:22PM, browbeaten wrote:

Muhammad WROTE down what was recited to him from Gabriel who supposedly got it directly from Allah. 


And you must be the witness that he was writing it on Jabel-e-Nur. 


Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:22PM, browbeaten wrote:

 Since nobody every knew or saw Gabriel, the only person with a physical attachment to the Qur'an was Mohammad.  He wrote everything down, did he not?


No. He did not write it down. There was no pen or ink on that mountain.


 Why quibble the semantics, rather that argue the point I was making?


You have made no point.


 And anyway, since Muhammad could not read or write, I'm surprised he was able to formulate the written word.


Now you are unable to understand how someone can hear and speak if he can't read or write. What a difference between his understanding and your understanding!

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:41PM #36
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

Apr 5, 2012 -- 6:09PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


Everyone has a bias. My bias is that I would rather have my faith accurately portrayed by others. Mohammed DID NOT do so.


Did Jesus portray your faith accurately?


If yes, why did Jews try to have him crucified?


If no, did he not read the same faith books?


I have no doubt that the Jews did not accept both Jesus and Muhammad because they both criticised the Jews for not following Jewish faith properly and deviating from the original true faith of Moses.



Actually, in rejecting their claims to divinity, new revelation and change of laws the Jews were fulfilling Deuteronomy 13:2. 


They never made any claim to divinity. They did not worship any other God than the God of Jews. The Jews rejected them because they had pinpointed the deviation of Jews in following their faith and this had made the Jews very angry.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:55PM #37
LeahOne
Posts: 16,478

"They never made any claim to divinity. They did not worship any other God than the God of Jews. The Jews rejected them because they had pinpointed the deviation of Jews in following their faith and this had made the Jews very angry."


I do not see how this could possibly be so - for Jesus instructs his followers to obey what the Pharisees teach 'for they sit in the seat of Moses' .


And certainly the Gospel writers had no reason to lie about what you claim is so central an issue.


 


The 'Jews' who were 'very angry' were Roman appointees at the Temple.  They brought Jesus to the attention of Pilate who was notoriously vicious even by Roman 'standards' for a procurator.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:56PM #38
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 5, 2012 -- 6:41PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 6:09PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


Everyone has a bias. My bias is that I would rather have my faith accurately portrayed by others. Mohammed DID NOT do so.


Did Jesus portray your faith accurately?


If yes, why did Jews try to have him crucified?


If no, did he not read the same faith books?


I have no doubt that the Jews did not accept both Jesus and Muhammad because they both criticised the Jews for not following Jewish faith properly and deviating from the original true faith of Moses.



Actually, in rejecting their claims to divinity, new revelation and change of laws the Jews were fulfilling Deuteronomy 13:2. 


They never made any claim to divinity.



Jesus' own assertions


Apr 5, 2012 -- 6:41PM, Ibn wrote:


They did not worship any other God than the God of Jews. The Jews rejected them because they had pinpointed the deviation of Jews in following their faith and this had made the Jews very angry.



No, they were the dreamers of dreams and false prophets that the verses (13:1-6) spoke about. 


- Do you observe the 7th day?


- Do you wear fringes on your garments?


- Do you wear totafot between your eyes?


- How many of the 613 commandments are you not keeping?






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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 7:11PM #39
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,603

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:59PM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Lilwabbit


Everyone has a bias. My bias is that I would rather have my faith accurately portrayed by others. Mohammed DID NOT do so.



Did Jesus portray your faith accurately?


Lilwabbit:


My responses are in dark green italic


We have no idea what Jesus may or may not have actually said, done or even if he actually existed as a discreet individual person (as opposed to some composite or as a pure fictional character) Whatever he may or may not have said, the persons who wrote the Christian Gospels did not accurately portray 1st century Judaism


If yes, why did Jews try to have him crucified?


If Jesus was crucified he was crucified by the Romans for reasons known to the Romans. Presumably for sedition, since it is alleged that he proclaimed himself "King of the Jews" which would have been sedition.


The Jews in 1st century Judea did not have the power to crucify anyone, as they were a subject people. Crucification was a Roman punishment and only the Roman authorities could order a crucification. In any event capital punishment had been banned for all practical purposes by Jewish courts of the time.


Why do you insist I have to follow Christian scripture in a discussion of Jesus' death? It is as improper a demand as your demand that I follow Muslim scripture.   


If no, did he not read the same faith books?


Again it is impossible to say what, if anything Jesus might have read or even if he existed. The people who wrote the Christian Gospels did not read Torah in Hebrew, they read a Greek translation which is inaccurate in addition they were not observant Jews or Jewish in any way shape or form. 


I have no doubt that the Jews did not accept both Jesus and Muhammad because they both criticized the Jews for not following Jewish faith properly and deviating from the original true faith of Moses. 


I have no doubt that Jews did not "accept" Jesus because 1. he was not the Messiah, 2.he had nothing to offer 3. where he differed from normative Jewish ideas he was incorrect. I have not doubt that Jews did not "accept" Mohamed because, at best, he was a fraud.


To put this in the absolute kindest manner. "Prophecy" was closed before the arrival of either Jesus or Mohammed.


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

The question up for discussion is “Why is Judaism not portrayed accurately in the Qur'an?”



I don't think Judaism is even mentioned in the Qur'an; there is no question of the Qur'an portraying Judaism inaccurately.


Then you have not read the Qur'an


The original faith of Abraham and Moses is submitting to G-d by obeying His Commands. This has been portrayed accurately in the Qur'an.


Then you have not read either the Qur'an or the Torah. The original faith of Abraham and Moses is Judaism. Judaism requires more than blind obedience. If you stick around on this board you may learn more about Judaism, or I could recommend some nice introductory books for you. 


Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:29AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I have checked a number of translations, they are all about the same and each and everyone of them reflects the same mis-statements.


1. there is absolutely nothing in the text which restricts the characterization contained in the quoted passages to Median Jews and Christians



You quoted verse 2:111 of the Qur'an:


[2.111] And they say: None shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.


Why would you Jews think that the verse is about you Jews today when you have never said, "none shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or a Christian"?


The Qur'an is inaccurate as to Jews of the time when it was written and it continues to be inaccurate. The only one who apparently said "none shall enter Paradise except he who is a Jew or Christian was apparently Mohammed and he just made it up out of whole cloth. If you claim he did not, please provide your proof. References to the Qur'an do not constitute proof.   


The last part of the verse is addressed to Muhammad that he should say to them (who are saying to him so) to bring their proof if they are truthful. I am pretty sure Muhammad did follow the Command in the verse and they could not produce any proof.


I will be happy to leave you with whatever illusions you require about Mohammed


If Muslims are not asking the Jews today to bring their proof, why is rocketjsquirrel so upset about powerful terrorist Jews of 1400 years ago in Madina being taken to task? 


Muslims continue to use the mis-statements contained in the Qur'an to justify their actions against Jews and Christians; to justify their mistreatment of Jews; to justify their claims to Jewish property, Jewish history, Jewish patriarchs, etc... ; to attempt to trick unwary Jews and convert them to Islam; etc...


Why do you accept the words of a man who does not tell the truth in his book for your history lessons?





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 11:54PM #40
Pam34
Posts: 2,680

Wow. Go away for a while and look what happens.



Minor points - maybe -



Muhammad did not write the Quran. He RECITED it and other people wrote down what they heard him say - or thought they heard him say. The Quran is organized by length - shortest part first, longest part last - which means it is absolutely NOT in anything like chronological or thematic order. That makes it a 'tough read'.


I have to say, often enough, a sura of the Quran 'sounds like' parts of Isaiah does to me, in the tone - a strong and urgent 'telling' addressing (mostly) one single theme: God is One.



I happen to have a great deal of respect for Muhammad, as it happens. That he had different traditions of 'the elders' and 'who did what when', and that he had information - or rumors - about what Christians and Jews believed (and there were not such a lot of either of them around where he was, and those that were, as far as I can tell, weren't exactly theological geniuses) - well - I can believe that he heard things which were not exactly correct in some cases.


He seems to have lumped Christians and Jews together in some ways, and (some) Christians DO teach exclusive salvation of believers. AFAIK, so does Islam, doesn't it?



Judaism doesn't. Judaism teaches 'salvation of everyone' with the exception of truly evil people. One's 'faith in God', or the lack thereof, doesn't factor in.


Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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