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Switch to Forum Live View How do you know whose claim is true?
3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 3:47AM #71
Ibn
Posts: 4,974

Apr 12, 2012 -- 5:04PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 5:01PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


You wrote:


Not in Madina. Jews in Madina sided with idol worshippers of Mecca and tried to have all Muslims killed. G-d was with Muhammad in Madina. Muhammad was an Arab and never went out of Arabia. Arabia was Arab land.


I hope that you remember this, the next time you attempt to tell me that Mohammed went to Jerusalem, or that he traveled throughout the Middle East. 




I know I will remember it, and keep a copy in my hard drive.


Don't forget to also keep a copy of the record of Muhammad conquering the lands because I will be referring to the question too. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 4:29AM #72
Ibn
Posts: 4,974


"....How come both the Bedouines and the Jews still remain after the genocide in Mecca? "Genocide in Mecca" is a Jewish lie. There never was a genocide in Mecca."  - Ibn



BS"D


No it is YOUR lie that it never happened.  All Jews didn't live in Medinah and all Bedouines did not reside in Mecca.   Derp, derp, derp.


If you doubt the veracity of this story then why do you continue to lie about the Meccans calling them idolators?  It is because in your sick and twisted ideology idolators are worthy of death.  Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick!   You would murder a living human being because they do not think like  you?   You need SERIOUS HELP!

Moderated by Bunsinspace on Apr 13, 2012 - 01:56PM
I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 8:08AM #73
visio
Posts: 3,424

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:29AM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


NO JEWISH COMMUNITY AT ANY TIME in history EVER plotted the genocide of ANY people ANYWHERE or EVER WILL.   That is the most evil lie you have ever posted.  Jewish law mandates we ONLY kill when one comes to kill us.


 Jews went on killing spree right from the outset after the Egyptian captivity. They were required to kill everyone in their way who were worshipping idols to reach the holy land. They did not attack you, you were to attack them. This went on for forty years until all were removed from your way.  






Ibn,


Are you referring to the following passage:


JEREMIAH 25:15


For thus said the Lord, the God of Israel, to me: "Take from My hand this wine cup of wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink of it. Let them drink and retch and go wild because of the sword that I am sending among them." So I took the cup from the hand of the Lord and gave drink to all the nations to whom the Lord had sent me: Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, and its kings and officials, to make them a desolate ruin, an object of hissing and a curse -- as is now the case; Pharaoh king of Egypt, his courtiers, his officials, and all his people; all the mixed peoples; all the kings of the land of Utz; all the kings of the land of the Philistines -- Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and what is left of Ashdod; Edom, Moab and Ammon; all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Sidon, and all the kings of the coastland across the sea; Dedan, Tema, and Buz, and all those who have their pe'ah clipped; all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mixed peoples who live in the desert; all the kings of Zimri and all the kings of Elam and all the kings of media; all the kings of the north, whether far from or close to each other -- al the royal lands which are on the earth. And last of all, the king of Sheshach [i.e. Babylon] shall drink. Say to them: "Thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel: Drink and get drunk and vomit; fall and never rise again, because of the sword that I send among you."


 Or, something else before it? 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:05AM #74
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,272

Ibn


There is a record of 1400 years of Islamic plunder, murder and oppression so far. You can argue that those who did the plundering, the murdering and the oppressing were not properly observant, and I will happily agree with you. However, as much as you wish, you can not deny history. The sluaghter of innocents in Mecca is no lie. It is just an uncomfortable truth which you prefer to ignore.


Visio


I will not bother to comment on the translation you provided, nor the actual contextual meaning and how the passage is properly interpreted until you tell me whether the Bible is history or not. You seem to take conflicting positions on this point.


Thank you.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:12AM #75
LeahOne
Posts: 16,412

If THAT is what he's referring to - Jeremiah is not reciting a literal history which Jews consider to be 'fact'.


Now you may choose to see it as such - but that does not fit the Jewish exegesis nor our paradigm.  And if you (general, in this case indicating 'Muslims') feel OK about telling me I'm not interpreting the Qu'ran properly because I depart from Islamic exegetical tradition or instructions - then you are giving me the parallel right with regard to Torah.


What I utterly refuse to ever accept, from anyone, is an assertion that the Torah 'was edited' (to remove pejorative connotations), the NT was edited - but the Qu'ran has never been edited. 


The ONLY way to 'prove' that any religious text has been edited, is to produce earlier copies which are substantially different.  The ONLY way to 'prove' that such is NOT the case, is actually to have THE FIRST writing of the text AND to find ALL susequent texts identical.


I am ***NOT*** discussing 'religious' claims nor traditions here, but 'Scriptures' as copies of ancient literature.  If you decline to discuss your Scripture in such light, that is fine:  but do us all the favor of simply declining.


I posted that because in attempts to discuss with some "Christians", they have insisted that GOD supernaturally protects the text of *their* Scripture.  I think that idea belongs in my cat's box, and not in any post-kindergarten attempts to discuss religion.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:21AM #76
LeahOne
Posts: 16,412

Ibn, you asked why you shouldn't attach 'Jewish' to anything you feel is a lie posted by a Jewish poster.


Hillel the Elder gave you the answer to that about 2000 years ago.  Of course you have free will and have every right to be as obnoxious as anyone else.  I simply question the wisdom of such behavior in this instance - especially when there's more than one Jewish poster around.


Did you intend to insult and offend me as well?  Are you trying to suggest that you feel there's ANY reason to suppose a Jewish person is any more a liar than anyone else?


Eldridge Cleaver is credited with saying "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" (although most likely he was quoting Charles Rosner: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_coined_the_phrase...)


Have you thought about the effects of your choices here - or were you simply 'yelling in pain'?


I see a lot of 'yelling in pain' on this thread - not all in one place.  I'm doing it right now......

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:56AM #77
Ibn
Posts: 4,974

Apr 13, 2012 -- 8:08AM, visio wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:29AM, Ibn wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


NO JEWISH COMMUNITY AT ANY TIME in history EVER plotted the genocide of ANY people ANYWHERE or EVER WILL.   That is the most evil lie you have ever posted.  Jewish law mandates we ONLY kill when one comes to kill us.


 Jews went on killing spree right from the outset after the Egyptian captivity. They were required to kill everyone in their way who were worshipping idols to reach the holy land. They did not attack you, you were to attack them. This went on for forty years until all were removed from your way.  




Ibn,


Are you referring to the following passage:


JEREMIAH 25:15


For thus said the Lord, the God of Israel, to me: "Take from My hand this wine cup of wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink of it. Let them drink and retch and go wild because of the sword that I am sending among them." So I took the cup from the hand of the Lord and gave drink to all the nations to whom the Lord had sent me: Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, and its kings and officials, to make them a desolate ruin, an object of hissing and a curse -- as is now the case; Pharaoh king of Egypt, his courtiers, his officials, and all his people; all the mixed peoples; all the kings of the land of Utz; all the kings of the land of the Philistines -- Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and what is left of Ashdod; Edom, Moab and Ammon; all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Sidon, and all the kings of the coastland across the sea; Dedan, Tema, and Buz, and all those who have their pe'ah clipped; all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mixed peoples who live in the desert; all the kings of Zimri and all the kings of Elam and all the kings of media; all the kings of the north, whether far from or close to each other -- al the royal lands which are on the earth. And last of all, the king of Sheshach [i.e. Babylon] shall drink. Say to them: "Thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel: Drink and get drunk and vomit; fall and never rise again, because of the sword that I send among you."


 Or, something else before it? 



visio,


I was referring to killing spree of idol worshippers by the Jews during the time from release of Children of Israel from Pharoah in Egypt to them reaching the holy land. Here is a passage from Exodus as an example of what they did from the outset and even later on:


 

32:26 Moses stood up at the camp's entrance and announced, 'Whoever is for God, join me!' All the Levites gathered around him.
32:27 He said to them, 'This is what God, Lord of Israel, says: Let each man put on his sword, and go from one gate to the other in the camp. Let each one kill [all those involved in the idolatory], even his own brother, close friend, or relative.'
32:28 The Levites did as Moses had ordered, and approximately 3000 people were killed that day.


How can "Jewish law mandates we ONLY kill when one comes to kill us" not be a lie?

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:06AM #78
Ibn
Posts: 4,974

Apr 13, 2012 -- 10:21AM, LeahOne wrote:


Ibn, you asked why you shouldn't attach 'Jewish' to anything you feel is a lie posted by a Jewish poster.


Hillel the Elder gave you the answer to that about 2000 years ago.  Of course you have free will and have every right to be as obnoxious as anyone else.  I simply question the wisdom of such behavior in this instance - especially when there's more than one Jewish poster around.


Did you intend to insult and offend me as well?  Are you trying to suggest that you feel there's ANY reason to suppose a Jewish person is any more a liar than anyone else?


Eldridge Cleaver is credited with saying "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" (although most likely he was quoting Charles Rosner: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_coined_the_phrase...)


Have you thought about the effects of your choices here - or were you simply 'yelling in pain'?


I see a lot of 'yelling in pain' on this thread - not all in one place.  I'm doing it right now......



LeahOne,


I did not intend to insult you. I have Jewish friends, who are believers, keeping the Commandments, observing the Sabbath, unlike many so-called Jewish people. I have nothing against good Jewish people. That's why it pains me to give impression that I am including all Jewish people. There are times to express myself in this fashion to drive my point home. I apologize if it offends good Jewish people. My intention does not extend to people like LeahOne who are always polite and patient, and never hostile and hateful.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:58AM #79
Pam34
Posts: 2,664

Ibn, is your first language English? Communication online is difficult sometimes even when people are from the same place, it's especially tricky when people are coming from different languages - there are a lot of 'background meaning' to some word choices that confuse what people actually mean to say.



That said - from the information I have found, Medina was a Jewish (or Jewish majority) city, and the people there initially supported Muhammad (for whatever reason) against the powers that were in Mecca, but later ceased to support him, presumably after he pressed them to become Muslim and follow him.


At that point, they became 'enemies', and I'm not going to condemn anybody on account of that, because it was a very different time and place.



But I would like people to understand that it was the pressure to convert that precipitated that 'enemy' status. Of course no Jews could convert: that would be against our own Torah instructions not to follow anybody after Moses and to stick with the Torah of Moses.



And as I wrote earlier, it wouldn't matter to US even if Muhammad WERE 'right' and he DID have a revelation from God (which Muslims of course believe firmly), because OUR instructions from God specifically tell us not to add anything else to the instructions (the revelation, the scripture) which we ALREADY had and have.



OK?



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 12:08PM #80
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,272

Ibin


I am going to assume that you do not realize how insulting and frankly racist your previous response is. It is doubtless that I could find any number of identical sentiments expressed in the 60's by racists speaking of African Americans. I only bring this up because I am reliably informed that you are not what the response makes you seem to be.


Perhaps you could re-word your response and then I could remove this comment.



   

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