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Switch to Forum Live View Spirituality in the Scientific World
2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:06AM #181
Rgurley4
Posts: 7,865

Spirituality in the Scientific World


aka


"Spirituality" (in Christ-followers) VERSUS the "Scientific World's" "demand for scientific, objective, empirical  PROOF"


Apples VERSUS Oranges!


...."I am spiritual, but not religious...What the flip does that mean!?!


Your definitions: FALSE and MISLEADING!


SPIRIT:


Paul had it figgered out.
He knew the Biblical words for "spirit":
- it occurs 570 times in 519 verses in the NASB ...over half of them are in the NT.


G4151  pneuma  (pnyü'-mä) ~=  Spirit, Holy Ghost, Spirit (of God), Spirit (of the Lord), (My) Spirit, Spirit (of truth), Spirit (of Christ), human (spirit), (evil) spirit,    spirit (general), spirit, (Jesus' own) spirit, (Jesus' own) ghost 


1 Corinthians 2: 9-16 (NIV)...Wisdom From the God the Holy Spirit
No eye has seen,
No ear has heard,
No mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him.
God has revealed it to us (our spirit) by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?
...No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
We (believers)  have not received the spirit of the world (mankind)
 but the Spirit who is from God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us.
This is what we speak,
not in words taught us by human wisdom
but in words taught by the Spirit,
expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things,
but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:


SCIENTIFIC PROOF:


Scientific evidence has no universally accepted definition
BUT generally refers to EVIDENCE which serves to either support or counter a scientific THEORYor hypothesis.
Such evidence is generally expected to be EMPIRICAL and properly DOCUMENTED
 in accordance with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD
 such as is applicable to the particular field of inquiry.
STANDARDS for evidence may vary according to whether the field of inquiry
 is among the natural sciences or social sciences (see qualitative research and intersubjectivity).
Evidence may involve understanding all steps of a process,
or one or a few observations,
or observation and statistical analysis of many samples without necessarily understanding the mechanism.


Never the twain shall these two meet !...well...maybe a bit or two...God is pissed about PURE evolutionary theory because it leaves the perfect Creator out!


Science cannot PROVE / DISPROVE Spirit/Soul...only BODY!


God allows Man the "free will" and intelligence to scientifically search.


...EXCEPT the TRI-UNE God is omnipotent and omniscient and good and just and loving and.......ETC!


A Belief System  VERSUS A Disciplined System to seek Knowledge

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:20AM #182
amcolph
Posts: 16,283

Apr 13, 2012 -- 11:06AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


 


Never the twain shall these two meet !...well...maybe a bit or two...God is pissed about PURE evolutionary theory because it leaves the perfect Creator out!


 




The only creator it leaves out is the one you worship: the god who lives in a magical book and can't do anything that isn't written there.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:32AM #183
Rgurley4
Posts: 7,865

I did not know that you were a professed A-theist, Amcolph. Go play with them...please?!?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 11:39AM #184
amcolph
Posts: 16,283

Apr 13, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


I did not know that you were a professed A-theist, Amcolph. Go play with them...please?!?




So everyone who doesn't believe in your magic Bible-god is an atheist?


Good going, Gurley, you'll convert lots of people to your sect that way.


For my part, I intend to remain a Christian despite your almost irresistable blandishments.

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 12:00PM #185
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 13, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


Did God know I was going to make that split-decision? Did God know I was going to step on the gas hard enough to screw my car up?


If he (or she, or it, or they) is omnipotent then he's omniscient and omnipresent, and if he's omniscient he certainly knew, and if he's omnipresent he certainly knew.


Of course (given he exists) if he's not omni then he's down here taking his chances with the rest of us.




I guess I failed to make clear that (IMvhO) God doesn't know all future events (no, I'm sure I was very clear). So, in that sense, God is not omniscient. If you reply to me, why not reply to my views? Otherwise, you're just wasting time........


God is not omnipotent (within the boundaries of our universe). God created the universe to operate by certain laws and rules. To change the rules He would necessarily have to destroy everything, come up with a new set of rules, and start over. (This God could do, being ultimately omnipotent).


One of the ways God set up our universe is so that He could not know the future with precision. (In a quantum universe, the building blocks of everything is quantum "stuff" [which isn't "stuff"]. For example, an electron doesn't have a position and a momentum. This can be said about everything, ultimately. Since everything that is, is made from "stuff" that is so ephemeral, we can throw cause and effect and determinism out the window, ultimately. However, FAPP, cause and effect are handy to have around). Thus, it is in this sense that God is not omnipresent (not present to future events). Process is so entangled and snarled, you can't separate out all the causes (especially if a large percentage of causes come from the future, see post #186).


Now, God knows the ultimate outcome of future history (but not every detail of getting there), he can work within the restraints of man's free will, to bring about His ultimate will.


All that can be pulled out of scripture.


Now, that's not too hard for you is it?


sdp 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 12:11PM #186
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 9, 2012 -- 11:30PM, Blü wrote:


Keyfer


I believe that every effect has a cause and every cause produces an effect regardless of what physics or QM says.


I fear that may not persuade many physicists.

It also means that you believe in strict determinism, the state of affairs in every instant being the direct causal result of the instant preceding it, right back to the Big Bang and right forward to the death of the universe.


but that does not rule out free will because I am still free to make the choices


All your choices are illusion. You have the sensation of making them but they're not choices, they're just actions, always and only the actions Yahweh has already seen you doing in the future (and even without that, omnisciently knew you'd do).  Nothing you can do can alter Yahweh's perfect knowledge, not even by the addition or subtraction of an atom.

All this necessarily follows from the premise of an omni god. (It's not very different in physics either, but there's no watcher and randomness means the future isn't fixed.)


these are spiritual substances, I am a spirit but I am clothed temporarily with a natural body


But even accepting that, you don't say how the 'spirit' makes decisions.  By a cause&effect process, randomly, or by magic?  There are no other ways, right?




Blu ........hypothetically (Innocent) if the future can be shown to be the cause of a present event, what would that do to your determinism? (This would be a fourth way Laughing).


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 6:10PM #187
dio
Posts: 4,317

everybody is spiritual and physical. Scientists too. We need to identify what is the spiritual part, for starters, I say it's our internal nature. Can I say spirit and physical are in a relationship like mind with body? Spirit is mind? can you agree that the mind is not the physical brain?  


What else is spiritual? how about Love? It  sure is long lasting. How about life? Its still a mystery to science. How about our creative nature? is that a spiritual quality? altruism? self sacrifice? kindness? Why be kind, it doesn't make sense for our survival to be kind. Charity? Why give to the poor? It's spiritual.


Why do you feel bad when you run over a ground hog? My dog doesn't feel bad when she shakes the life out of one.


Science needs spiritual. Science without spirit is blind, spirit without science is cripple.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 8:57PM #188
koala972
Posts: 863

Apr 13, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


Did God know I was going to make that split-decision? Did God know I was going to step on the gas hard enough to screw my car up?


If he (or she, or it, or they) is omnipotent then he's omniscient and omnipresent, and if he's omniscient he certainly knew, and if he's omnipresent he certainly knew.


Of course (given he exists) if he's not omni then he's down here taking his chances with the rest of us.




What you are saying that without the 'omni' God is just like us?  But that doesn't follow as the only possible conclusion - for example if you consider that it may just be a matter of relative degree you can readily see there are phenomena you can compare, a 'breeze' to a 'hurricane' or a 'candle' to 'sunlight at noon', the 'salary of a restaurant server' to the 'salary of a business tycoon'.  And you can see that from the standpoint of 'effectiveness' a large relative difference between two quantities can be just as overriding to the thing on the lower end as a statement of extremes such as 'strongest possible wind' 'brightest possible light' 'most money that it is possible to have'.


And as far as taking chances, according to the bible god has a terrible advantage on us: he doesn't die.  So he isn't stuck dealing with the fact that he will lose it all and the uncertainty of when that will happen.


But I still also maintain that if he somehow WERE omni whatever, he would probably get bored and seek to remedy that situation but making it less so.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 9:31PM #189
Blü
Posts: 23,991

Koala


he doesn't die


Gods die all the time.  Lack of human followers = no one to imagine them = death.


The public get what they want.  If they want Yahweh to change his name to Zeus or Allah, he will.  If they want him to reject slavery, agree to divorce, move his smile from monarchy to democracy, get behind civil rights - he will.


So nothing requires anyone's god to be omni, but once you do, there are consequences.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:11PM #190
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,657


Apr 13, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


I did not know that you were a professed A-theist, Amcolph. Go play with them...please?!?





It is that amazing arrogance and disrespect of other peoples beliefs, I always find so fascinating, and distasteful with certain types of Christians. Stunning, truly stunning. Still after all these years.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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