Post Reply
Page 20 of 27  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 27 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Spirituality in the Scientific World
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:46AM #191
Blü
Posts: 23,974

stardust


hypothetically if the future can be shown to be the cause of a present event, what would that do to your determinism? (This would be a fourth way).


Ah, a tachyon did it!  Yes, as I understand it, if something traveled faster than light it would appear to us that the effect preceded the cause. 


In fact Superman went FTL in the first of the modern Superman movies to travel to the past and save Lois from a death she'd already suffered.  The physics is not a little obscure, which may explain why Jor-el had left a note saying the caper was frowned on.


It's in my mind that causation by tachyons only looks backwards - as a transaction in physics it's still explained as cause&effect.


But if that's wrong then you're quite correct - or rather, will be when someone catches a tachyon in the act.


No other way in which the future might be said to affect the past occurs to me.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:51AM #192
Blü
Posts: 23,974

Rgurley


I did not know that you were a professed A-theist, Amcolph. Go play with them...please?!?


So to disagree with Rgurley is to be an atheist, eh?


If the population of the world is P, that would make the number of atheists P - 1, no?


Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:53AM #193
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

.Blu........the innocent emoto-thingy was to indicate it's not really hypothetical, but actual, does that make a difference concerning a reply?


Apr 13, 2012 -- 12:11PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Apr 9, 2012 -- 11:30PM, Blü wrote:


But even accepting that, you don't say how the 'spirit' makes decisions.  By a cause&effect process, randomly, or by magic?  There are no other ways, right?




Blu ........hypothetically (Innocent) if the future can be shown to be the cause of a present event, what would that do to your determinism? (This would be a fourth way Laughing).


sdp





The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 3:21AM #194
Blü
Posts: 23,974

stardust


God is not omnipotent (within the boundaries of our universe). God created the universe to operate by certain laws and rules. To change the rules He would necessarily have to destroy everything, come up with a new set of rules, and start over. (This God could do, being ultimately omnipotent).


An omni god to whom perfection is attributed will have made only perfect decisions in creating the universe and seeing how it will unfold.  It's therefore inconceivable that he'd want to review any of them at any later stage.


So you're postulating a non-omni, non-perfect god.


One of the ways God set up our universe is so that He could not know the future with precision.


That means he's not omni and he's not perfect.  No problem.


For example, an electron doesn't have a position and a momentum.


More accurately, Max Born said:


“...To measure space coordinates and instants of time, rigid measuring rods and clocks are required. On the other hand, to measure momenta and energies, devices are necessary with movable parts to absorb the impact of the test object and to indicate the size of its momentum. Paying regard to the fact that quantum mechanics is competent for dealing with the interaction of object and apparatus, it is seen that no arrangement is possible that will fulfill both requirements simultaneously...


Since everything that is, is made from "stuff" that is so ephemeral, we can throw cause and effect and determinism out the window,


Because of quantum randomness we can throw strict determinism out the window, but the rest is cause&effect all the way down.


Process is so entangled and snarled, you can't separate out all the causes


That would be no problem for an omni god, but since we've put that aside, you may well be correct.


Now, God knows the ultimate outcome of future history (but not every detail of getting there)


How?  Not by omnipotence, omniscience or omnipresence or perfection.  What gives him access to the future?



Now, that's not too hard for you is it?


Abandoning the idea of an omni god who's perfect, and it all falls into place.


Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 3:46AM #195
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:21AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


God is not omnipotent (within the boundaries of our universe). God created the universe to operate by certain laws and rules. To change the rules He would necessarily have to destroy everything, come up with a new set of rules, and start over. (This God could do, being ultimately omnipotent).


An omni god to whom perfection is attributed will have made only perfect decisions in creating the universe and seeing how it will unfold.  It's therefore inconceivable that he'd want to review any of them at any later stage.


So you're postulating a non-omni, non-perfect god.

Precisely, the constitution of this universe is perfect for God's purposes. Omni means God is ultimately in control, but it also means God created the universe with certain SELF-imposed limitations. Is that not in the least comprehensible to you?


sdp






The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 4:06AM #196
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:21AM, Blü wrote:


For example, an electron doesn't have a position and a momentum.


More accurately, Max Born said:


“...To measure space coordinates and instants of time, rigid measuring rods and clocks are required. On the other hand, to measure momenta and energies, devices are necessary with movable parts to absorb the impact of the test object and to indicate the size of its momentum. Paying regard to the fact that quantum mechanics is competent for dealing with the interaction of object and apparatus, it is seen that no arrangement is possible that will fulfill both requirements simultaneously...




It's not just a measurement problem, despite your Born quote. Making a measurement actually distorts reality.


 (All this mess about how consciousness creates reality is just nonsense. Reality did quite well on its on before man came on the scene).

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 9:53AM #197
Blü
Posts: 23,974

stardust


Making a measurement actually distorts reality.


Really? How.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 10:49AM #198
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:06AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

... Making a measurement actually distorts reality.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Blü wrote:

Really? How.


Peraphs reading this article, The observer e ffect (by Massimiliano Sassoli de Bianchi, September 30, 2011, PDF @ arxiv.org), may help you both.


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:25AM #199
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:49AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:06AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

... Making a measurement actually distorts reality.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Blü wrote:

Really? How.


Peraphs reading this article, The observer e ffect (by Massimiliano Sassoli de Bianchi, September 30, 2011, PDF @ arxiv.org), may help you both.


MdS




I glanced at the article, the pertinent part seems to be: Observation as an Act of Destruction.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:40AM #200
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Blü wrote:


stardust


Making a measurement actually distorts reality.


Really? How.




Say we have an electron. Quantum physics says not only can we not-know the position and momentum simultaneously, the electron doesn't have a position and momenum. Nevertheless, as the wave aspect, the electron is a sort of cloud of probability, *it" can be *anywhere* in the cloud surrounding the nucleus. Let's call this the *natural* state of the electron. But we can do an experiment to find the position of the electron. When we do so, we, so-to-speak, remove the electron from its natural state of being anywhere and place it at a specific point in time.


Thus, the measurement distorts reality.


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 20 of 27  •  Prev 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 27 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook