Rgurley

I did not know that you were a professed A-theist, Amcolph. Go play with them...please?!?

So to disagree with Rgurley is to be an atheist, eh?

If the population of the world is P, that would make the number of atheists P - 1, no?

stardust

God is not omnipotent (within the boundaries of our universe). God created the universe to operate by certain laws and rules. To change the rules He would necessarily have to destroy everything, come up with a new set of rules, and start over. (This God could do, being ultimately omnipotent).

An omni god to whom perfection is attributed will have made only perfect decisions in creating the universe and seeing how it will unfold.  It's therefore inconceivable that he'd want to review any of them at any later stage.

So you're postulating a non-omni, non-perfect god.

One of the ways God set up our universe is so that He could not know the future with precision.

That means he's not omni and he's not perfect.  No problem.

For example, an electron doesn't have a position and a momentum.

More accurately, Max Born said:

“...To measure space coordinates and instants of time, rigid measuring rods and clocks are required. On the other hand, to measure momenta and energies, devices are necessary with movable parts to absorb the impact of the test object and to indicate the size of its momentum. Paying regard to the fact that quantum mechanics is competent for dealing with the interaction of object and apparatus, it is seen that no arrangement is possible that will fulfill both requirements simultaneously...

Since everything that is, is made from "stuff" that is so ephemeral, we can throw cause and effect and determinism out the window,

Because of quantum randomness we can throw strict determinism out the window, but the rest is cause&effect all the way down.

Process is so entangled and snarled, you can't separate out all the causes

That would be no problem for an omni god, but since we've put that aside, you may well be correct.

Now, God knows the ultimate outcome of future history (but not every detail of getting there)

How?  Not by omnipotence, omniscience or omnipresence or perfection.  What gives him access to the future?

Now, that's not too hard for you is it?

Abandoning the idea of an omni god who's perfect, and it all falls into place.

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:21AM, Blü wrote:

For example, an electron doesn't have a position and a momentum.

More accurately, Max Born said:

“...To measure space coordinates and instants of time, rigid measuring rods and clocks are required. On the other hand, to measure momenta and energies, devices are necessary with movable parts to absorb the impact of the test object and to indicate the size of its momentum. Paying regard to the fact that quantum mechanics is competent for dealing with the interaction of object and apparatus, it is seen that no arrangement is possible that will fulfill both requirements simultaneously...

It's not just a measurement problem, despite your Born quote. Making a measurement actually distorts reality.

 (All this mess about how consciousness creates reality is just nonsense. Reality did quite well on its on before man came on the scene).

Apr 14, 2012 -- 4:06AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

... Making a measurement actually distorts reality.

Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Blü wrote:

Really? How.

Peraphs reading this article, The observer effect (by Massimiliano Sassoli de Bianchi, September 30, 2011, PDF @ arxiv.org), may help you both.

MdS

Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:53AM, Blü wrote:

stardust

Making a measurement actually distorts reality.

Really? How.

Say we have an electron. Quantum physics says not only can we not-know the position and momentum simultaneously, the electron doesn't have a position and momenum. Nevertheless, as the wave aspect, the electron is a sort of cloud of probability, *it" can be *anywhere* in the cloud surrounding the nucleus. Let's call this the *natural* state of the electron. But we can do an experiment to find the position of the electron. When we do so, we, so-to-speak, remove the electron from its natural state of being anywhere and place it at a specific point in time.

Thus, the measurement distorts reality.

sdp