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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2012 - 9:30PM #1
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669
Its been a few years since we have had a discussion thread about him. neoPythagoren Philospher, healing sage, miracle worker, anti-sacrifice, pro good works. Casts out demons, raises the dead and confronts wicked emperors.


 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyan...
Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 9:06AM #2
koolpoi
Posts: 6,535

Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:30PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Its been a few years since we have had a discussion thread about him. neoPythagoren Philospher, healing sage, miracle worker, anti-sacrifice, pro good works. Casts out demons, raises the dead and confronts wicked emperors.


 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyan...



Sounds like a prophet.How does he fit into Christian theology?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 9:14AM #3
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

He does not. Although some claim he is the historical basis for the stories of Jesus and Paul.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 10:08AM #4
tfvespasianus
Posts: 2,089
Davelaw,

 

I have heard about this material in allusion, but, to be honest, I haven't had the chance to get to reading it for myself. I recently got an iPad and there's a monograph on Apollonius by G.R.S. Mead available for free (as are a lot of other intriguing works). If I recall correctly an early Church Father (it could be Jerome, but I am by no means sure of that) admitted many stories from the Pagan world preceded and mirrored the gospels in some respects, but asserted that these tales were sown by Satan in order to make the gospel look bad, in much the same way that some apologists posited with respect to fossils when they were first being studied. I haven't heard that line of defense being used in a while, but I think that's in part to the relative obscurity of such works and the very fact that many of the tales with which the Father was familiar are now lost. 
Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant - Tacitus
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 10:36AM #5
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:30PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Its been a few years since we have had a discussion thread about him. neoPythagoren Philospher, healing sage, miracle worker, anti-sacrifice, pro good works. Casts out demons, raises the dead and confronts wicked emperors.


 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyan...



What about him?


First of all, it is not insignificant that it was Julia Domna of Emesa, Syria (remember Elagabalus?  His great aunt) who had his biography written.


Moreover


"...The treatise On sacrifices certainly existed. Philostratus claims to have seen it 'in several cities and in the houses of several learned men' and claims that 'if anyone should translate it, he would find it to be a grave and dignified composition' (LoA 3.41). Philostratus' confession that On sacrifices was written in Apollonius' native tongue (probably Aramaean, see note 5) is at odds with his portrait of Apollonius as a champion of the Greek culture, and this suggests that the book did really exist. In fact, we can be certain of its existence, since it is quoted in a treatise On abstinence (2.34) by the above mentioned philosopher Porphyry and also by the church father Eusebius (Preparation for the Gospel 4.13):


In no other manner, I believe, can one exhibit a fitting respect for the Divine being, beyond any other men make sure of being singled out as an object of his favor and good-will, than by refusing to offer to God -whom we termed First, who is One and separate from all, as subordinate to Whom we must recognize all the rest- any victim at all; to Him we must not kindle fire or make promise unto Him of any sensible object whatsoever. For He needs nothing even from beings higher than ourselves. Nor is there any plant or animal which earth sends up or nourishes, to which some pollution is not incident. We should make use in relation to Him solely of the higher speech, I mean of that which issues not by the lips; and from the noblest faculty we possess, and that faculty is intelligence, which needs no organ. On these principles then we ought not on any account to sacrifice to the mighty and supreme God.

This is the only quote that we can attribute to the sage of Tyana with a substantial degree of certainty."


This is hardly compatible with the worship of YHWH.


Also, it is thought he wrote a book On Astrology, also incompatible with worship of YHWH.


www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollon...

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2012 - 2:00AM #6
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Apr 2, 2012 -- 10:36AM, Adelphe wrote:

www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollon...


"This [Evaluation of the sources] is the seventh part of an article in nine pieces" on Apollonius of Tyana ...


... and it is well worth reading in its entirety.


Oh, BTW, at livius.org you may also find an article on Jesus of Nazareth, #6 on the list of Messianic Claimants.


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 8:22AM #7
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Apr 3, 2012 -- 2:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 2, 2012 -- 10:36AM, Adelphe wrote:

www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollon...


"This [Evaluation of the sources] is the seventh part of an article in nine pieces" on Apollonius of Tyana ...


... and it is well worth reading in its entirety.



Yes, I like that site very much.



Oh, BTW, at livius.org you may also find an article on Jesus of Nazareth, #6 on the list of Messianic Claimants.


MdS




I do, however, disagree with the comment:


"...The story, which uses the messianic motive of the star (i.e., Balaam's prophecy), is neither confirmed by other sources nor embarrassing, and seems to be a later addition."


First, there are several unusual astronomical phenomena recorded in the years immediately prior to and immediately subsequent to the "traditional" date of Jesus' birth ("0" in the Gregorian calendar.)


Second, that the royalty referred to in "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth" should ultimately be born in such lowly circumstances I believe was embarrassing.


Third, the situation with Mary which--to the outsider--appears as her claiming impregnation by some..."spirit" and Joseph's (to the outsider) gullibility are both also embarrassing.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 5:25AM #8
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Apr 4, 2012 -- 8:22AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 3, 2012 -- 2:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... at livius.org you may also find an article on Jesus of Nazareth, #6 on the list of Messianic Claimants.


I do, however, disagree with the comment:


"...The story, which uses the messianic motive of the star (i.e., Balaam's prophecy), is neither confirmed by other sources nor embarrassing, and seems to be a later addition."


First, there are several unusual astronomical phenomena recorded in the years immediately prior to and immediately subsequent to the "traditional" date of Jesus' birth ("0" in the Gregorian calendar.)


Second, that the royalty referred to in "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth" should ultimately be born in such lowly circumstances I believe was embarrassing.


Third, the situation with Mary which--to the outsider--appears as her claiming impregnation by some..."spirit" and Joseph's (to the outsider) gullibility are both also embarrassing.


First, as we read at livius.org ...


“Although the writer -or editor- of the book of Numbers seems to have had king Josiah in mind when he composed these lines, from the second century onward, this text was interpreted as a prediction of the coming of the Messiah.” -- Balaam's prophecy


... so it is quite normal that Early Christians, who where looking for all possible Messianic prophecies in the OT, saw Numbers 24.17-19 as a Messianic prophecy, fulfilled in the coming of Jesus.


I'm not quite sure what you have in mind, when you speak of "several unusual astronomical phenomena". Perhaps something of what is described at this article, The Star of Bethleem, @ astronomynotes.com.


BTW, a minor detail: there is no "year 0" in the Gregorian calendar (see Wikipedia: Year zero; Proleptic Gregorian calendar).


Second, and once again, as Early Christians affirmed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Anointed King, obviously they were not embarrassed in the least by any "lowly circumstances".


Third, and for the third time, it is quite apparent that Early Christians were not embarrassed in the least, so much so that they boasted the mysterious, miraculous origin of Jesus, even affirming that Joseph had received a special visit from "an angel of the Lord" who reassured him that "the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit", even associating it, as fulfilled prophecy, to Isaiah 7:14 (Matt 1:20-23), even speaking of Mary’s Hymn of Praise (Luke 1:46-55).


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 9:56AM #9
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Apr 6, 2012 -- 5:25AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Apr 4, 2012 -- 8:22AM, Adelphe wrote:

Apr 3, 2012 -- 2:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

... at livius.org you may also find an article on Jesus of Nazareth, #6 on the list of Messianic Claimants.


I do, however, disagree with the comment:


"...The story, which uses the messianic motive of the star (i.e., Balaam's prophecy), is neither confirmed by other sources nor embarrassing, and seems to be a later addition."


First, there are several unusual astronomical phenomena recorded in the years immediately prior to and immediately subsequent to the "traditional" date of Jesus' birth ("0" in the Gregorian calendar.)


Second, that the royalty referred to in "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth" should ultimately be born in such lowly circumstances I believe was embarrassing.


Third, the situation with Mary which--to the outsider--appears as her claiming impregnation by some..."spirit" and Joseph's (to the outsider) gullibility are both also embarrassing.


First, as we read at livius.org ...


“Although the writer -or editor- of the book of Numbers seems to have had king Josiah in mind when he composed these lines, from the second century onward, this text was interpreted as a prediction of the coming of the Messiah.” -- Balaam's prophecy


... so it is quite normal that Early Christians, who where looking for all possible Messianic prophecies in the OT, saw Numbers 24.17-19 as a Messianic prophecy, fulfilled in the coming of Jesus.


I'm not quite sure what you have in mind, when you speak of "several unusual astronomical phenomena". Perhaps something of what is described at this article, The Star of Bethleem, @ astronomynotes.com.


BTW, a minor detail: there is no "year 0" in the Gregorian calendar (see Wikipedia: Year zero; Proleptic Gregorian calendar).


Second, and once again, as Early Christians affirmed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Anointed King, obviously they were not embarrassed in the least by any "lowly circumstances".


Third, and for the third time, it is quite apparent that Early Christians were not embarrassed in the least, so much so that they boasted the mysterious, miraculous origin of Jesus, even affirming that Joseph had received a special visit from "an angel of the Lord" who reassured him that "the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit", even associating it, as fulfilled prophecy, to Isaiah 7:14 (Matt 1:20-23), even speaking of Mary’s Hymn of Praise (Luke 1:46-55).


MdS




I really don't know what rock you crawled out from under that you could confuse so thouroughly embarrassingly "embarrassment" as emotion and "embarrassment" as a scholarly test of authenticity:


"Scholars usually solve the second question by invoking 'criteria of authenticity', such as embarrassment (some things are too embarrassing for Christians to be invented)"


Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed


Embarassed


Embarassed


Embarassed

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:45AM #10
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Apr 6, 2012 -- 9:56AM, Adelphe wrote:

... you could confuse so thouroughly embarrassingly [1] "embarrassment" as emotion and [2] "embarrassment" as a scholarly test of authenticity:


"Scholars usually solve the second question by invoking 'criteria of authenticity', such as embarrassment (some things are too embarrassing for Christians to be invented)"



The poor lady doesn't even realize that [2] "'embarrassment' as a scholarly test of authenticity" is rooted precisely in [1] "'embarrassment' as emotion" ...


... as the phrase "some things are too embarrassing for Christians to be invented" fully confirms.


More, what else does the poor lady speak of, with her ...


“... that the royalty referred to in [Balaam's prophecy, Numbers 24:17-19] should ultimately be born in such lowly circumstances I believe was embarrassing.”


... if not of [1] "embarrassment" as emotion?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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