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Switch to Forum Live View If the Kingdom is paramount to you
3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 2:35PM #151
Kemmer
Posts: 16,714

  We don't teach that anyone's sexual orientation is a sin.  The Bible teaches that 'men lying with men'  and 'females changing the natural use of themselves' are sins...Those things are actions, practices,  not orientations.



What do you expect from healthy humans who for 1000s of years were forbidden marriage?!  Whatever your benighted little sect "teaches", it's an immutable orientation.


(1 Timothy 5:5-7) . . .. 6 But the one that goes in for sensual gratification is *(spiritually)  dead though she is living.



Vile hogwash.  Sensual gratification DOES NOT cancel out spirituality. 


In order to keep God's commands, a person with a same-sex orientation would also have to choose moral chastity.



Nah.  I'm sure God understands.


(1 Thessalonians 4:7-8) 7 For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. 8 So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in YOU.



I wish I had a dollar for every item the bible says is sui generis "unclean".


The Bible clearly asks us to avoid unclean acts, to avoid 'going in for sensual gratifictation,' or else be 'spiritually dead' and be  guilty of 'disregarding God.'  One who did so, would have a clean conscience. .



And an incredibly boring life.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 3:12PM #152
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I've read Jeremiah's story, as referenced in the OP, and while he obeyed God's command and never married, his life was far from 'boring.'  He also preserved his life with God's help, in a time period where a great many lost their lives by their disobedience. 


Anna serves as another example of chaste spirituality which was rewarded.


(Luke 2:36-38) 36 Now there was Anna a prophetess, Phan′u‧el’s daughter, of Ash′er’s tribe (this woman was well along in years, and had lived with a husband for seven years from her virginity, 37 and she was a widow now eighty-four years old), who was never missing from the temple, rendering sacred service night and day with fastings and supplications. 38 And in that very hour she came near and began returning thanks to God and speaking about [the child] to all those waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance.


Eighty-four was a grand age to reach, it may well be that God prolonged her life to give her the opportunity to see the Messiah as an infant, and bear witness about him.



Basically, it works down to, if you want the world that's what you can have...and that is all.  You don't get the 'world' and its works, and the Kingdom too.  The world and its works, and the Kingdom and God's will, are polar opposites. 


(1 John 2:17) 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.



“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 5:23PM #153
Kemmer
Posts: 16,714

Basically, it works down to, if you want the world that's what you can have...and that is all.  You don't get the 'world' and its works, and the Kingdom too.



Sure you can.  Too bad about you JWs, though.  Bummer.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:43PM #154
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 15, 2012 -- 2:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


they were in essence, teaching people who had same-sex orientation to hate themselves. ---Ed



If this was not their intent, which it demonstrably was not, and is clearly not the application that was made by all readers, which it clearly the case, as plenty of readers, even with same-sex orientation were able to make a positive application of the information, they were not 'in essence' or in fact either, teaching people who had same sex orientation to hate themselves.



Plenty of readers with same-sex orientation were able to make a positive application of the information? Oh please, do explain.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 2:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


You personally did not understand what we mean when we say 'hate what is bad.'  I have used two sources to demonstrate that information was available to you, by which you could have understood and adopted our interpretation. Your interpretation is valid as being your interpretation, but not valid as being what we taught.


The intention has always been, not to teach self-hatred or excessive guilt, but to teach self-control by avoiding wrong actions, which results in self-respect.



Yes, on the surface...but how about the subtle, swept-over statments such as the "scum of the homosexual world" statement that the Govern Body so prudently and discreetly and sensitively published in one of their publications for all to see?


Apr 15, 2012 -- 2:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


but that old saying that goes something like, 'hate the sin and not the sinner'...is a misapplied little apothegm...because a person's sexual orientation....isa part of who a person is.---Ed




It is only misapplied when it is improperly understood.  We don't teach that anyone's sexual orientation is a sin.  The Bible teaches that 'men lying with men'  and 'females changing the natural use of themselves' are sins, even obscene, according to the Bible. Ro 1:26, 27  Those things are actions, practices,  not orientations.



You are not telling the truth, GTBHS, because recently, a JW posted somewhere that sin is defined as 'anything that is not in harmony with God's will.' Therefore, by default, you all would believe that any sexual desire that is 'out-of-harmony-with-God's-will' is a sin. And it's that simple, GTBHS. But why are you trying to make it sound as if it's not that simple?


Also, why are you trying to make the Watchtower Society sound more noble, and kind, and more understanding than they really are?


Apr 15, 2012 -- 2:01PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Heterosexuals have to abide by the Bible's rules as well.   Not everyone can find a mate, but that cannot be used as an excuse to violate God's commands.  Mates  sometimes die.  Widows were counseled


(1 Timothy 5:5-7) . . .. 6 But the one that goes in for sensual gratification is *(spiritually)  dead though she is living. 7 So keep on giving these commands, that they may be irreprehensible.


In order to keep God's commands, a widow had to be morally chaste.


In order to keep God's commands, a person with a same-sex orientation would also have to choose moral chastity.


(1 Thessalonians 4:7-8) 7 For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. 8 So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in YOU.



The Bible clearly asks us to avoid unclean acts, to avoid 'going in for sensual gratifictation,' or else be 'spiritually dead' and be  guilty of 'disregarding God.'  One who did so, would have a clean conscience.  The intent of the writing in the Watchtower, Youth book, etc. was to encourage self-control and a clean conscience.



*added for clarity



Yes, and with all the other subtle, hateful, and condemning stuff that's in the Watchtower publications. 


Edited: To change a word in the last sentence.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 6:57PM #155
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Ed - If you continue your downward spiral towards disrepectful speech, I will stop responding to you.  


As for applying the Scriptural counsel, you already knew, did you not, that many of Jehovah's Witnesses formerly practiced  homosexual acts as well as other forms of fornication?


But they have been "washed clean" as this Scripture exemplifies:


(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.


I am sorry you no longer sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart - as your more recent posts make clear - but you also can come back to Christ and thus post in a respectful manner:


(1 Peter 3:15) But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


And, of course, goodtobehome's post was accurate and she is always respectful - you have no excuse for your remarks.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:00PM #156
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 2, 2012 -- 8:19PM, Ed2 wrote:


Apr 2, 2012 -- 2:51PM, Goodtobehomestill wrote:


Those for whom the Kingdom is the greatest 'treasure' do this, make this effort, this sacrifice, whether it is regarding the need to transform from being materialistic, or being disposed to anger, or from desiring sexual expression to which one is not scripturally entitled, etc. 



Say whaaaaat? 


So am I somehow misunderstanding Genesis 1: 27-28, Genesis 2:24, Proverbs 5:18-19, Song of Songs 7:6, 1 Corinthians 7:2-3, 1 Corinthians 7:5, and 1 Corinthians 7:9. And if so, how am I misunderstanding these scriptures.



I've been meaning to bump this post up again, before it got too far behind....to have GTBHS give an explanation for what she said....since the scriputres that I cited don't seem to be in harmony with GTBHS's 'not scriptually entitled to desiring sexual expression' statement.


Also, if this is what the Watchtower teaches...then how can one expect to make the Kingdom paramount to themself(ala Watchtower style)...if the Watchtower is twisting and teaching scriptures that are not accurate...and that are not spiritually and mentally and emotionally healthy for the well being of their adherents? Or at least, not all of their adherents. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:07PM #157
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:57PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - If you continue your downward spiral towards disrepectful speech, I will stop responding to you. 



Please, don't tempt me. Wink 


Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:57PM, Newtonian wrote:


As for applying the Scriptural counsel, you already knew, did you not, that many of Jehovah's Witnesses formerly practiced  homosexual acts as well as other forms of fornication?


But they have been "washed clean" as this Scripture exemplifies:


(1 Corinthians 6:9-11) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.



Actually, I am not home right now, but when I get home, I have some information that I would like to share with you regarding the above.


Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:57PM, Newtonian wrote:


I am sorry you no longer sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart - as your more recent posts make clear - but you also can come back to Christ and thus post in a respectful manner:


(1 Peter 3:15) But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


And, of course, goodtobehome's post was accurate and she is always respectful - you have no excuse for your remarks.



Now what was it that I said....that has got you in such of an uproar? Was it the thing about the scum of the earth?




 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:08PM #158
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:23PM, Kemmer wrote:


Basically, it works down to, if you want the world that's what you can have...and that is all.  You don't get the 'world' and its works, and the Kingdom too.



Sure you can.  Too bad about you JWs, though.  Bummer.




No, you cannot Kemmer - not if you you believe what Jesus taught:


(John 17:14-19) . . .I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.


(James 4:4) Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.


(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”


(John 15:17-19) 17 “These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another. 18 If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.


(1 John 2:15-17) . . .Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever. . .


However, Kemmer, it is true most religions are part of this world and likely feel as you do - but the Bible teaches as above.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:11PM #159
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:43PM, Ed_3 wrote:


Yes, and with all the other subtle, hateful, and condemning crap that's in the Watchtower publications. 



Hmmm. It must have been my use of the word "crap." Okay, I'll go back and change it to the word "stuff."

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:15PM #160
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Ed - e.g. the conclusion of your above post about hate in our literature, for example.   We teach  love for people, not hate - and surely you knew this so I see no excuse for your posting that way.


As for the expression 'scum of this earth" I could only find this reference in our literature:


"Showing that no man can play a kinglike role in the true Christian church, the apostle Paul drew a strong contrast between those who would try to do so and true apostles: “I wish you were really kings, and we could be kings with you! But instead, it seems to me, God has put us apostles (including Peter) at the end of his parade, with the men sentenced to death . . . you are celebrities, we are nobodies. . . . we work for our living with our own hands. . . . We are treated as the offal of the world, still to this day, the scum of the earth.” Do you think this Scriptural description of the apostles of Christ is reflected by the attitude of those who claim to be their successors?—1 Cor. 4:8-13, Catholic “Jerusalem Bible.”" - "The Watchtower," 11/15/80 p. 10.


scum of the earth is the reading in that Bible translation.

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