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Switch to Forum Live View Islamophobia is counter-factual
2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 2:30PM #21
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,067

rocketjsquirell:  The Muslims were just as eager to kill Jews as the Christians. In fact, during the Crusades (which was part of the Christian reaction to the military invasion of the Muslims into Christian lands)


Did Jews know those lands were Christian?  I thought it was theirs first.  Muslims were just trying to get a spot in a gig we Christians started.


And from what I remember of history, we were meaner than "they" (Muslims) were.


AishJew4ever1:  Just because Ibn believes that Jews are hated by G-d and cursed doesn't make that true at all.


Personally, I don't take it that way from Ibn at all.  I just think Ibn is handing back what rocket gives out.


Don't judge a book by its cover whether it's good or bad, free your mind and don't believe every negative stereotype that you are brainwashed about the Jewish people


Again, this seems to be more about mocking rocket's irrational fears, not being mean to Jews.  Rocket has a thing for villainizing Islam, so Ibn is just handing back all the stereotypical crap about Jews.  And this isn't some anti-Jewish rant.  Believe you me, my religion occasionally pops up on this board and floods the place with irrational crap too.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 5:24PM #22
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Here a YouTube video that may explain why some people develop Islamophobia:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hKEd6rzbeg


What is "counter-factual" about this event? I understand that the demonstrators may not have been taught Islam correctly, but who's to blame for that?


Islamophobia is a reaction, a response; it is not an actively sought-out stance. I'd say that people become islamophobe because they are surprised and shocked about what poses as Islam in front of them. They couldn't care less about Islam otherwise. And why should they?




Why should they?  So they'd know how stupid it is to blame an entire faith because they're as ignorant of others as the people promoting their fear are of them.  Ignorance is no excuse for hatred, but it's at the root of most hatred.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 3:20AM #23
Ibn
Posts: 4,437

Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Here a YouTube video that may explain why some people develop Islamophobia:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hKEd6rzbeg


What is "counter-factual" about this event?


It is an old video. The group that organised it has already been banned in Britain. Abu Hamza was linked to this group and he is about to be extradited to USA for his activities. Therefore, there is a lot more that has gone on in Britain since this video was made that is not in this video.


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I understand that the demonstrators may not have been taught Islam correctly, but who's to blame for that?


Islam?


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Islamophobia is a reaction, a response; it is not an actively sought-out stance. I'd say that people become islamophobe because they are surprised and shocked about what poses as Islam in front of them. They couldn't care less about Islam otherwise. And why should they?


Islamophobia is irrational fear of Islam. The headline "End of Britain" is Islamophobia. There is going to be "no end" of Britain. There has been end of that extremist group, and Muslims had helped to bring about the end of such a group.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 9:18AM #24
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Ibn wrote:


It is an old video.



It was first aired in February 2012 on BBC Three, and recorded in September 2011.
Why would you call that "old"?


www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cl48b



The group that organised it has already been banned in Britain. Abu Hamza was linked to this group and he is about to be extradited to USA for his activities. Therefore, there is a lot more that has gone on in Britain since this video was made that is not in this video.



Thanks for sharing this! I don't follow the Muslim community (or xenophobia) in the UK very much; there's enough of it already here in the Netherlands.



Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I understand that the demonstrators may not have been taught Islam correctly, but who's to blame for that?


Islam?



If this is your answer. The happenings are closer to your community than to mine, so you can explain them much better than I could.


Ibn: Islamophobia is irrational fear of Islam. The headline "End of Britain" is Islamophobia. There is going to be "no end" of Britain. There has been end of that extremist group, and Muslims had helped to bring about the end of such a group.


Good news! And I agree with your assessment. The whole reason why I posted the video was that, as I see it, this type of public appearance of Muslims is exactly what creates Islamophobia.


People need not fear Islam. But people are completely justified when fearing the stupidity and violent attitude radiating from these hundred people demonstrating in the video.


Apr 13, 2012 -- 5:24PM, Miraj wrote:


[It is stupid] to blame an entire faith ... they're as ignorant of others as the people promoting their fear are of them.  Ignorance is no excuse for hatred, but it's at the root of most hatred.



As Ibn pointed out, islamophobia is fear, not hatred.


Do you prefer to shift the discussion to hatred instead of fear?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 10:32AM #25
IDBC
Posts: 4,454

Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


rocketjsquirell: 


The Muslims were just as eager to kill Jews as the Christians. In fact, during the Crusades (which was part of the Christian reaction to the military invasion of the Muslims into Christian lands)



The Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims were NOT just as eager to kill the Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Jews during the Crusades.  During the Crusades the Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Jews fought with the Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims when theNot-Real So-Called Ignorant Christians invaded Not-Real So-Called Islamic Palestine which the Not-Real So-Called Allah gave to Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims because Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims invaded So-Called "Christian" lands both in the Middle East and in Europe and also because Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims prevented Christians from making pilgrimages to "Holy"  Jerserusalem.


Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Christians slaughtered Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Jews and Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Muslims in the "Holy" city of Jerserusalem when God-Allah "gave" them victory over the "infidels".


Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


 Did Jews know those lands were Christian? 


 I thought it was theirs first.  Muslims were just trying to get a spot in a gig we Christians started.



I thought it was the the polytheistic, idol worshipping pagans before "God gave" the land to "the Jews"-"those who submit to Allah". 


Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


And from what I remember of history, we were meaner than "they" (Muslims) were.



Who wrote the history?  


Even if "they", aka Christians, were "meaner" it is because "they" were Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Misunderstanders of "True" Christianity.  


And even if the Muslims aka Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Misunderstanders of "True" Islam were "less" mean they still were "mean".   



 


AishJew4ever1:  Just because Ibn believes that Jews are hated by G-d and cursed doesn't make that true at all.



Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


Personally, I don't take it that way from Ibn at all.  I just think Ibn is handing back what rocket gives out.



"Do Unto others what they have done on to you."  


If it okay for rocket to do it then it is okay for Ibn to do it.  


 


Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


Don't judge a book by its cover whether it's good or bad, free your mind and don't believe every negative stereotype that you are brainwashed about the Jewish people



"Do unto to others what they have done unto you".  


I don't blame Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Misunderstanders of "True" Muslims for believing "every" negative stereotype that they are mis-educated into believing about Christians and Jews.


Nor do I blame Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Misunderstanders of "True"  Christiantiy for "every" negative stereotype of Muslims.  


What I blame is the use of stereotypes wether they are "negative" OR "positives".    


 


Apr 13, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


 


Again, this seems to be more about mocking rocket's irrational fears, not being mean to Jews.  Rocket has a thing for villainizing Islam, so Ibn is just handing back all the stereotypical crap about Jews.  And this isn't some anti-Jewish rant.  Believe you me, my religion occasionally pops up on this board and floods the place with irrational crap too.





Stereotypes wether negative OR postive "irrational".   If I were to cla that Muslims love their family, are peaceful and tolerant, that would be a "postive" stereotype.  I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that Muslims would NOT be angry or enraged or dispute that they are True Muslims who Understand True Islam and not "ignorant".  


However if I were to claim the opposite-negative stereotype I would be will to bet more than a dollar that Muslims would be very angry, and in response would


"Claim Unto To Others What The Others Who Have Claimed Unto Them. "


  Personally, I don't take it that way from Muslims or Jews or Christains  at all.  I just think the Muslims  is handing back what Jews, or Christians  gives out which is negative stereotypes.  


If  we should not believe "every" negative stereotype does that mean we should not believe "any"  negative stereotype?  


If we should not believe negative stereotypes shold we believe "postive" stereotypes?  


 


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 5:45PM #26
Ibn
Posts: 4,437

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Ibn wrote:


It is an old video.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

It was first aired in February 2012 on BBC Three, and recorded in September 2011.
Why would you call that "old"?


www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cl48b 



I have seen several such videos. Many of them are now old. I am not sure when that march was held but the guy being interviewed is from a banned group.


The group that organised it has already been banned in Britain. Abu Hamza was linked to this group and he is about to be extradited to USA for his activities. Therefore, there is a lot more that has gone on in Britain since this video was made that is not in this video.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Thanks for sharing this! I don't follow the Muslim community (or xenophobia) in the UK very much; there's enough of it already here in the Netherlands.



Yes, we do hear about it across the channel. The protests by extremists are crazy. I have never taken part in any such protests. Although I am a Muslim, I am also British and am proud to be British. 


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:

I understand that the demonstrators may not have been taught Islam correctly, but who's to blame for that?


Islam?

Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

 If this is your answer. The happenings are closer to your community than to mine, so you can explain them much better than I could.


That was a question, not an answer. Islam can't be blamed for their ignorance.


Ibn: Islamophobia is irrational fear of Islam. The headline "End of Britain" is Islamophobia. There is going to be "no end" of Britain. There has been end of that extremist group, and Muslims had helped to bring about the end of such a group.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Good news! And I agree with your assessment. The whole reason why I posted the video was that, as I see it, this type of public appearance of Muslims is exactly what creates Islamophobia.


Why blame Islam for it? I can post similar video by EDL that are just as bad but there is no EDLphobia being created.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxzH9fxIko


www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtvVChzco1E&feat...


Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

People need not fear Islam. But people are completely justified when fearing the stupidity and violent attitude radiating from these hundred people demonstrating in the video.


EDL is against Islam. Its leader has made it clear.


Apr 13, 2012 -- 5:24PM, Miraj wrote:


[It is stupid] to blame an entire faith ... they're as ignorant of others as the people promoting their fear are of them.  Ignorance is no excuse for hatred, but it's at the root of most hatred.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

As Ibn pointed out, islamophobia is fear, not hatred.


Irrational fear of Islam leads to hatred towards Islam and Muslims.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 10:04PM #27
IDBC
Posts: 4,454

Howdy Ibn


Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Ibn wrote:


It is an old video.





Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

It was first aired in February 2012 on BBC Three, and recorded in September 2011. Why would you call that "old"?


www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cl48b




Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:

I have seen several such videos. Many of them are now old. I am not sure when that march was held but the guy being interviewed is from a banned group.



But the video shown was recorded "all the way back" to Sept.  2011.    That's five whole months ago.  Practically ancient history!


What was the name of "the group"?


While "the group" is banned the people in the group are still there. 





Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:



The group that organised it has already been banned in Britain. Abu Hamza was linked to this group and he is about to be extradited to USA for his activities. Therefore, there is a lot more that has gone on in Britain since this video was made that is not in this video.



Is this the Iman Abu Hamza who was the  the former head of the Finsbury Park mosque in north London.?


Is this the Abu Hamza who was framed by the Islamophic British Justice system for preaching religious tenets set forth in the Koran and was only prosecuted to avoid political embarrassment after the U.S. government filed terrorism charges against him.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Thanks for sharing this! I don't follow the Muslim community (or xenophobia) in the UK very much; there's enough of it already here in the Netherlands.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:


Yes, we do hear about it across the channel. The protests by extremists are crazy. I have never taken part in any such protests. Although I am a Muslim, I am also British and am proud to be British.



Not just a Muslim but a properly educated true Muslim! 


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:12AM, CharikIeia wrote:



I understand that the demonstrators may not have been taught Islam correctly, but who's to blame for that?


Islam?

Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

If this is your answer. The happenings are closer to your community than to mine, so you can explain them much better than I could.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:

That was a question, not an answer. Islam can't be blamed for their ignorance.



I agree that Islam can't be held responsible or blamed for their ignorance of true Islam.


The only ones that can be held responsible are the Muslim's themselves who are ignorant and those who are responsible for educating them.  


You are responsible for not being ignorant.  You are responsible for getting a proper education in "true" Islam. 


Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:


Ibn: Islamophobia is irrational fear of Islam. The headline "End of Britain" is Islamophobia. There is going to be "no end" of Britain. There has been end of that extremist group, and Muslims had helped to bring about the end of such a group.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Good news! And I agree with your assessment. The whole reason why I posted the video was that, as I see it, this type of public appearance of Muslims is exactly what creates Islamophobia.


Why blame Islam for it? I can post similar video by EDL that are just as bad but there is no EDLphobia being created.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxzH9fxIko


www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtvVChzco1E&feat...



I agree that the public appearance of Ignorant Not Real Mis-Educated Muslims is what creates Islamophobia. 


I am now offically going to create EDLphobia.   



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

People need not fear Islam. But people are completely justified when fearing the stupidity and violent attitude radiating from these hundred people demonstrating in the video.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:

EDL is against Islam. Its leader has made it clear.



The video made it clear that the leader was against using violence against Muslims.



Apr 13, 2012 -- 5:24PM, Miraj wrote:


[It is stupid] to blame an entire faith ... they're as ignorant of others as the people promoting their fear are of them.  Ignorance is no excuse for hatred, but it's at the root of most hatred.




I don't blame the entire faith.   I blame the Ignorant Mis-Educated Muslims who are responible for getting a proper education and those who are responsible for giving them a proper education.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

As Ibn pointed out, islamophobia is fear, not hatred.


Irrational fear of Islam leads to hatred towards Islam and Muslims.




The rational fear is against those Not-Real So-called Mis-Educated Ignorant Muslims and those who Mis-educated them.   It is they who are responsible for hatred and fear of ALL Muslims. 


It is they who are responsible for "Islamophobia". 


Since we are using u-tube videos, see:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8


On second thought I don't think EDLphobia is a good word because it only refers to Not-Real So-Called Mis-educated Nazis. 


Islamophobia refers to a fear of ALL Muslims.   Not ALL people who have this irrational fear of ALL Muslims are EDL-Nazis.   Some are Republicans.  Laughing


How about Non-Islamicphobia? 


Are there Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Mis-Educated Muslims who have an "irrational" fear of ALL Non-Muslims?  


 


 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 4:03PM #28
Ibn
Posts: 4,437

Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Ibn wrote:


It is an old video.




Apr 14, 2012 -- 9:18AM, CharikIeia wrote:

It was first aired in February 2012 on BBC Three, and recorded in September 2011. Why would you call that "old"?


www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cl48b




Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:

I have seen several such videos. Many of them are now old. I am not sure when that march was held but the guy being interviewed is from a banned group.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

What was the name of "the group"?


Al Muhajiroun.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

While "the group" is banned the people in the group are still there. 


They have been creating off shoots that have also been banned.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

Is this the Iman Abu Hamza who was the  the former head of the Finsbury Park mosque in north London.?


Yes.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

Not just a Muslim but a properly educated true Muslim! 


Thanks. There is always room to learn more. When I used to work as voluntary school governor, I once said to a school inspector, "the biggest room in any school is the room for improvement". The inspector liked it so much that she actually made a note of it so that she remembers it for future reference. I am no exception; I too can learn more.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:

EDL is against Islam. Its leader has made it clear.



Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

The video made it clear that the leader was against using violence against Muslims.


EDL members have been arrested for using violence.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

Islamophobia refers to a fear of ALL Muslims.   Not ALL people who have this irrational fear of ALL Muslims are EDL-Nazis.   Some are Republicans.  Laughing 


That's why they are not going to win the next election. They might go to war for WMDs again.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 10:04PM, IDBC wrote:

How about Non-Islamicphobia? 


Are there Not-Real So-Called Ignorant Mis-Educated Muslims who have an "irrational" fear of ALL Non-Muslims? 


Not to my knowledge. Non-Islamicphobia does not seem to be the right term either. Too many non-Muslims don't know the difference between "Islamic" and Non-Islamic or unIslamic (particularly the Republicans).

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 8:44AM #29
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Hello Ibn!


Apr 14, 2012 -- 5:45PM, Ibn wrote:


The protests by extremists are crazy. I have never taken part in any such protests. Although I am a Muslim, I am also British and am proud to be British. 



And that always should be the first assumption of onlookers when seeing extremists protest: that this is not the norm, that the majority in question likely does not condone it. Especially when the extremist group on the street is as small as in the video I linked to.


It's a hard thing, this peaceful living-together. You need to show a modicum of interest in your neighbours to get rid of own prejudice about (or fear of) them - and nobody can just live on as if the other weren't there.


I think, people's welfare should always trump religious conviction. In a perfect world, there's presumably no difference betweent he two, but we don't live in a perfect world.



Islam can't be blamed for their ignorance.



Well, that's of course true. Islam in that sense may be like any other inanimate object or inherently passive set of ideas & theories. It always is people who abuse the tree and make clubs of its branches to hit their neighbours. It is childish, at less than three-year-old level, to blame the tree.



I can post similar video by EDL that are just as bad but there is no EDLphobia being created.



The majority Brits may (presumably erroneously) file the EDL people as harmless-stupid, yes, but I think there may be a lot of fear being created in the Muslim community. That's exactly the same reaction as the majority Brits showed to Abu Hamza, or? It's the stupid radicals that you don't know since your childhood that you're afraid of. The stupid radicals you shared your primary school bench with you're not afraid of, as you know they're miserable fools only.



Irrational fear of Islam leads to hatred towards Islam and Muslims.



That's why people need to get educated to use their brains and not be irrational.


Enlightenment is the only medicine that helps here, I think.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 3:52AM #30
posterboy
Posts: 91

 


     There is no creation myth in Buddhism to explain the origin of human suffering.  Buddhism traditionally attributes human suffering to "the three poisons"  They are translated as ignorance, hatred, and greed.   Demagogue followers of   religious  paths  have misused them  and what ensues is rancour among the tribes of mankind.  Sectarian zealots like to take the most obscure, and corrupt manifestations of  other religions  and use these non-normative facets ( often exhibited under conditions of severe social tumult) and present them as typical in polemics against  entire cultures and faiths.  This intellectual dishonesty is frequently found among Christian evangelists  who instead of sticking to  emphasizing positive attributes of Christianity, traduce other faiths. 


    So folks, do your own research.  For starters,  you could read the Bible,  The Quran, Rig Veda.  representative  Buddhist sutras,  and to gain an appreciation of historic development of European and Islamic societies, definitely read Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"including the Latin source footnotes, and the "Bokhara Hadith".  Then you will avoid giving credence to some of the nasty canards implied in some of these posts.  You are right,  Miraj.  

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