Apr 1, 2012 -- 2:35AM, Aka_me wrote:

“various celebrities have had proxy work done for them many times over,”

over a hundred billion proxy baptisms to perform...

you'd think that redundency would have been eliminated before any work started.

but the God of confusion either doesn't know how to prevent redundency, or doesn't care.

That one's on the people doing the record-keeping.

My reading of the bible tells me that baptism by the apostles was simply a public and symbolic way of declaring the relationship with Christ as one's savior.  There is nothing magical or supernatural about it.  If the underlying relationship does not exist, baptism is nothing more than a quick bath.  And if the underlying relationship does exist, it would be petty of God to reject that relationship because there was no baptism.

Read the entire chapter for yourself. (1st Corinthians 15)  What you will find is that Paul is arguing that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a real event, witnessed by many, including himself, and not simply some fanciful romantic notion not intended to be taken literally.  Apparently, some in the early church were teaching this.(verse 12)

Paul says if there was no resurrection,  Jesus is still dead, then he was no different than any other prophet who died for their faith, and if he is still dead, then those who publically declare that they are followers of Christ (through baptism) will wind up just like Jesus - DEAD!(verses 13-19)  This is because declaring to be a follower of Christ was a very dangerous thing.  Preaching the gospel was very dangerous.  It was open season on Christians by the Jews as well as the Romans. If you were known to be a Christian, your very life was at stake.  In essence Paul asks, what is the point of putting your life at risk for a dead guy?(verses 29-30)  It is simply foolishness.

Paul also clarifies Jesus' teaching "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, ..."(John 3:5) in verses 44-48, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." Born of water is the natural birth, and born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth spoke of by Jesus and Paul.

Paul says if Christ did indeed rise from the tomb, then he lives! And if he lives, then he has overcome death itself!  And if he has overcome death, what have we to fear?  And that is why Paul and the other apostles spoke so boldly and confidently.  They no longer had to fear death.(verses 54-55)  The resurrection is real!

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is proof, not just evidence, but proof that there is life eternal for those who accept the Lord as their savior.  If you reject the truth of the resurrection, you reject Christ himself.  If there was no resurrection, then the man Jesus was a liar and a fool, and all those who claim to have seen the resurrected Christ are liars.  Paul says you would be a fool to put yourself at risk for a pack of lies.

Joseph Smith took a single scripture (1st Corinthians 15:29) out of context and built an entire nonsensical ritual around it.  He combined it with his misappropriation of Masonic rituals, and to this day it keeps Mormons busy as beavers trying to assure that their ancestors and relatives are not tossed out of heaven on a technicality.

Apr 14, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Unworthyone wrote:

My reading of the bible tells me that baptism by the apostles was simply a public and symbolic way of declaring the relationship with Christ as one's savior.  There is nothing magical or supernatural about it.  If the underlying relationship does not exist, baptism is nothing more than a quick bath.  And if the underlying relationship does exist, it would be petty of God to reject that relationship because there was no baptism.

Read the entire chapter for yourself. (1st Corinthians 15)  What you will find is that Paul is arguing that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a real event, witnessed by many, including himself, and not simply some fanciful romantic notion not intended to be taken literally.  Apparently, some in the early church were teaching this.(verse 12)

Paul says if there was no resurrection,  Jesus is still dead, then he was no different than any other prophet who died for their faith, and if he is still dead, then those who publically declare that they are followers of Christ (through baptism) will wind up just like Jesus - DEAD!(verses 13-19)  This is because declaring to be a follower of Christ was a very dangerous thing.  Preaching the gospel was very dangerous.  It was open season on Christians by the Jews as well as the Romans. If you were known to be a Christian, your very life was at stake.  In essence Paul asks, what is the point of putting your life at risk for a dead guy?(verses 29-30)  It is simply foolishness.

Paul also clarifies Jesus' teaching "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, ..."(John 3:5) in verses 44-48, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." Born of water is the natural birth, and born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth spoke of by Jesus and Paul.

Paul says if Christ did indeed rise from the tomb, then he lives! And if he lives, then he has overcome death itself!  And if he has overcome death, what have we to fear?  And that is why Paul and the other apostles spoke so boldly and confidently.  They no longer had to fear death.(verses 54-55)  The resurrection is real!

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is proof, not just evidence, but proof that there is life eternal for those who accept the Lord as their savior.  If you reject the truth of the resurrection, you reject Christ himself.  If there was no resurrection, then the man Jesus was a liar and a fool, and all those who claim to have seen the resurrected Christ are liars.  Paul says you would be a fool to put yourself at risk for a pack of lies.

Joseph Smith took a single scripture (1st Corinthians 15:29) out of context and built an entire nonsensical ritual around it.  He combined it with his misappropriation of Masonic rituals, and to this day it keeps Mormons busy as beavers trying to assure that their ancestors and relatives are not tossed out of heaven on a technicality.

I find it hard to believe that LDS missionaries, who are supposed to be quite well-versed in scripture, can quote that one verse (1st Corinthians 15:29) out of context with a straight face, and say the Bible supports the LDS practice of proxy baptisms.

aka/me:

does anyone know where in the Bible it describes new believers as speaking in tongues BEFORE receiving a baptism?

Acts 10:44-48 > While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Best I can do - the interesting thing here is that God gave the Holy Spirit to Gentile believes before they were baptized; which is out of the normal pattern seen both in Scripture, and commonly believed among most Christians. This passage figures prominently in my theological studies, because where most Christians believe God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him - as in get baptized, God is more than able to give the Holy Spirit to people who simply believe the Gospel. Thus baptism is not a prerequisite for receiving the gift of the Spirit, only faith in Christ is truly necessary.

This is not to say that I do not believe baptism is essential - I actually do believe that. I would encourage anybody who believes in Christ to get baptized as soon as they can, even as in this case before us with Peter.

~ Theophilus