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Switch to Forum Live View Why is it important?
2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:40PM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,097

Why would it be important to a god that people believe X? 

It seems that for most forms of Christianity, the most important thing is to believe X and then to behave within a certain framework that defines one version of morality.

However, if one does not believe X then operating within that moral framework is completely ineffectual and irrelevant.

Why would a god be concerned with whether or not any person believes X?  Why would it be important?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:56PM #2
dio
Posts: 4,678

Yes thats the question, to my mind Christianity seems to be more concerned with correct belief than correct behavior.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:09PM #3
Burnman
Posts: 3,266

Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:56PM, dio wrote:


Yes thats the question, to my mind Christianity seems to be more concerned with correct belief than correct behavior.





What is behavior without thought?


What divides immoral behavior from moral behavior?

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:13PM #4
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Burnman wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:56PM, dio wrote:


Yes thats the question, to my mind Christianity seems to be more concerned with correct belief than correct behavior.





What is behavior without thought?


What divides immoral behavior from moral behavior?




Perspective. The fundamental question is here.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:27PM #5
Burnman
Posts: 3,266

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:13PM, Paladinsf wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Burnman wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:56PM, dio wrote:


Yes thats the question, to my mind Christianity seems to be more concerned with correct belief than correct behavior.





What is behavior without thought?


What divides immoral behavior from moral behavior?




Perspective. The fundamental question is here.





Interesting. I see no way thay "perspective" is the answer that the author is an answer to my two questions though.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:36PM #6
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

It is not just a matter of behavior. First, I see no correlation with better versus worse behavior and this versus that type of religious orientation. Second, all relgiions and cultures seem to arrive (independently or otherwise) at acceptance of the Ethic of Reciprocity as a good guide to behavior.


Yet docrinal religion is obsessed with establishing uniformity of belief. That is exactly why the church's creedal statements were written. Little differences in beliefs could be grudgingly accepted but there had to be agreement on the big items.


Why? So that if I say "I am an Ockflorpian," everyone will know what I believe about the Great Tentacled One From Neptune.


But why do I care whether anyone knows what I believe about Ockflorp? Isn't the important thing that Ockflorp knows what I believe? Ockfllorp knows my heart without my saying a word. So why do I have to make a public proclamation about it? Yes, it is written in the Book of Ockflorp, "He that denies me to his fellows denies them the chance to know me" (7:20-21), but refraining from making public proclamations is not the same as denial. (Ockflorpianism is non-proselytizing.)


So the only reason why I would make a public proclamation is to impress others. "Oooh!" they will think. "That guy is one of those cool Ockflorpians!"


Finally, why should the church care about uniformity of belief? Because otherwise, people will go around believing any old thing, and then there would be no need of churches to tell them the right things to believe.


For the churches, uniformity of belief is a matter of institutional self-preservation.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:44PM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 21,097

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:36PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


It is not just a matter of behavior. First, I see no correlation with better versus worse behavior and this versus that type of religious orientation. Second, all relgiions and cultures seem to arrive (independently or otherwise) at acceptance of the Ethic of Reciprocity as a good guide to behavior.


Yet docrinal religion is obsessed with establishing uniformity of belief. That is exactly why the church's creedal statements were written. Little differences in beliefs could be grudgingly accepted but there had to be agreement on the big items.


Why? So that if I say "I am an Ockflorpian," everyone will know what I believe about the Great Tentacled One From Neptune.


But why do I care whether anyone knows what I believe about Ockflorp? Isn't the important thing that Ockflorp knows what I believe? Ockfllorp knows my heart without my saying a word. So why do I have to make a public proclamation about it? Yes, it is written in the Book of Ockflorp, "He that denies me to his fellows denies them the chance to know me" (7:20-21), but refraining from making public proclamations is not the same as denial. (Ockflorpianism is non-proselytizing.)


So the only reason why I would make a public proclamation is to impress others. "Oooh!" they will think. "That guy is one of those cool Ockflorpians!"


Finally, why should the church care about uniformity of belief? Because otherwise, people will go around believing any old thing, and then there would be no need of churches to tell them the right things to believe.


For the churches, uniformity of belief is a matter of institutional self-preservation.





I have an easier time understand why some people want to enforce a uniformity of belief on other people.


What I don't understand is why a god would consider as the principle metric of a human being is whether they have the right view of X.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:52PM #8
dio
Posts: 4,678

I don't believe in an anthropromorphic God.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 3:07PM #9
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:27PM, Burnman wrote:

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:13PM, Paladinsf wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Burnman wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:56PM, dio wrote:


Yes thats the question, to my mind Christianity seems to be more concerned with correct belief than correct behavior.





What is behavior without thought?


What divides immoral behavior from moral behavior?




Perspective. The fundamental question is here.





Interesting. I see no way thay "perspective" is the answer that the author is an answer to my two questions though.


Nor would I expect you to.


Your failure is yet ANOTHER example of how simply believing this stuff corrodes reasoning ablility.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 3:09PM #10
lope
Posts: 10,774

Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:40PM, Kwinters wrote:


Why would it be important to a god that people believe X? 

It seems that for most forms of Christianity, the most important thing is to believe X and then to behave within a certain framework that defines one version of morality.

However, if one does not believe X then operating within that moral framework is completely ineffectual and irrelevant.

Why would a god be concerned with whether or not any person believes X?  Why would it be important?





I don't see God being concerned about the intellecutal  beliefs in the last judgment scene with the sheep and the goats.   Jesus said it was all summed up in loving God and man---nothing there about intellectual beliefs.

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