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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:04PM #1
57
Posts: 22,653

One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:38PM #2
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,173

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:47PM #3
57
Posts: 22,653

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.




It wasn't just Paul.  It was also John and the author of Hebrews that said Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with these verses in post 1. 


I also presented you with a verse from Isaiah that tells us God did it alone.  So, if this "son" you mention isn't Jesus..then who helped God? 


Explain why God said He did it alone with no help. 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:55PM #4
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,173

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.




It wasn't just Paul.  It was also John and the author of Hebrews that said Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with these verses in post 1. 


So why didn't Jesus himself say it? Don't you think he would identify himself as the creator of the world? I mean, seriously?


I also presented you with a verse from Isaiah that tells us God did it alone.  So, if this "son" you mention isn't Jesus..then who helped God? 


The word "Son" also refers to the indwelling divine. In this case, it's probably the Holy Spirit.


Explain why God said He did it alone with no help. 


Because he didn't have Jesus helping him. It was God creating the universe alone, not Jesus.


You're only proving my point.





There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 8:12PM #5
57
Posts: 22,653

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:55PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.




It wasn't just Paul.  It was also John and the author of Hebrews that said Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with these verses in post 1. 


So why didn't Jesus himself say it? Don't you think he would identify himself as the creator of the world? I mean, seriously?


Whether Jesus said so or not would have no bearing on the argument.  Other scripture attest to the fact Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with several verses and you have only "critized" them with no actual refutation.


I also presented you with a verse from Isaiah that tells us God did it alone.  So, if this "son" you mention isn't Jesus..then who helped God? 


The word "Son" also refers to the indwelling divine. In this case, it's probably the Holy Spirit.


Oh, OK...so when I read about the individual surrounding the text mentioned in post 1...I should assume it was the Holy Spirit the bible istalking about?  You should slow down a bit an think about your ad-hoc post before you hit the submit post button.


Explain why God said He did it alone with no help. 


Because he didn't have Jesus helping him. It was God creating the universe alone, not Jesus.


Then why does the bible say it was Jesus?  Maybe you ought to tell us who John 1:3 and John 1:10 are talking about...just above you hinted it was the Holy Spirit in your attempt to refute me.


You're only proving my point.


What point??????









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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 9:06PM #6
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,173

Mar 22, 2012 -- 8:12PM, 57 wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:55PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:47PM, 57 wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.




It wasn't just Paul.  It was also John and the author of Hebrews that said Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with these verses in post 1. 


So why didn't Jesus himself say it? Don't you think he would identify himself as the creator of the world? I mean, seriously?


Whether Jesus said so or not would have no bearing on the argument.  Other scripture attest to the fact Jesus was the creator.  I presented you with several verses and you have only "critized" them with no actual refutation.


MMarcoe: Poppycock. He's God, the savior of humanity, the Only Perfect One ... and he doesn't identify himself as the creator? That's utterly incompetent of a god to do. I don't buy it.


I also presented you with a verse from Isaiah that tells us God did it alone.  So, if this "son" you mention isn't Jesus..then who helped God? 


The word "Son" also refers to the indwelling divine. In this case, it's probably the Holy Spirit.


Oh, OK...so when I read about the individual surrounding the text mentioned in post 1...I should assume it was the Holy Spirit the bible istalking about?  You should slow down a bit an think about your ad-hoc post before you hit the submit post button.


MMarcoe: Yes. It fits perfectly in there.


Explain why God said He did it alone with no help. 


Because he didn't have Jesus helping him. It was God creating the universe alone, not Jesus.


Then why does the bible say it was Jesus?  Maybe you ought to tell us who John 1:3 and John 1:10 are talking about...just above you hinted it was the Holy Spirit in your attempt to refute me.


MMarcoe: Sigh. NOWHERE does the Bible say it was Jesus. NOWHERE do John 1:3 and John 1:10 identify that entity as Jesus. You see, this is why I harp on you. You constantly fail to make sound arguments, and then you get all huffy when people point out the obvious holes in your reasoning.


You're only proving my point.


What point??????


MMarcoe: And here we have it again. Clearly your ADD is getting the better of you.













There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 9:47PM #7
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, 57 wrote:


One of the proof that Jesus is God is the biblical accounts that present Him as the creator. 

COL 1:16      For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible  and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were  created by him and for him.


COL 1:17      He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


JOH 1:3       Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has  been made. 


JOH 1:10      He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 


HEB 1:2       but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

If Jesus Christ is not God...but only lent a hand in creation as some suggest then Isaiah is wrong.


Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your A)">Redeemer, and the one who B)">formed you from the womb,


   “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, 
C)">Stretching out the heavens by Myself 
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The above verse says God did it by Himself....all alone, by Himself.
Considering the verses above from the NT tell us Jesus was the creator...Isaiah confirms the fact that Jesus is God.  


 





Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.


And second of all, these passages refer to the "Son," not to Jesus. The Son is more than just Jesus.


As for Isaiah's quote, that's not about Jesus. It's about Yahweh.




humilty


Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 10:01PM #8
Sober88
Posts: 4

Very interesting discussion.Cool

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 10:17PM #9
jonny42
Posts: 6,704

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:




Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.





Just because he isn't quoted as saying he was the creator… doesn't mean he didn't say it.   I'm guessing that there were many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in the NT.   


"And though the world was made through him" (John 1:10)  The disciples, who has spent much time listening to Jesus, reported that he created the world.   It is likely that Jesus gave them that information.    

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:01PM #10
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,173

Mar 22, 2012 -- 10:17PM, jonny42 wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:38PM, MMarcoe wrote:




Why didn't Jesus identify himself as the creator? Why did Paul have to come along and do it?


Sorry, but if Jesus were the creator, he'd have identified himself as such. But he didn't.





Just because he isn't quoted as saying he was the creator… doesn't mean he didn't say it.   I'm guessing that there were many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in the NT.   


Yes, I know. The last paragraph of the Book of John says that. Which makes me wonder, why aren't all those things in the NT? Did they not make the cut? Did Jesus deem them unimportant as he was inspiring the writers of the Bible?


Sorry, but if he were the creator, that would be important enough to include in the NT.


"And though the world was made through him" (John 1:10)  The disciples, who has spent much time listening to Jesus, reported that he created the world.   It is likely that Jesus gave them that information.    


If they reported that at all, they were referring to his divine side only, which is already God. So it sounds like a moot point to me.





There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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