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Switch to Forum Live View ANOTHER VIEW OF THE HOLOCAUST
3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 2:29PM #11
Ben Masada
Posts: 2,808

Mar 24, 2012 -- 6:56AM, river8101 wrote:


All this talk of a Messiah has really puzzled me.  If there was truly to be one, why didn't he come  when the Jewish people really needed help, when they were in big trouble? Times such as the 1930's and 40's or when the Assyrians conquered Israel, or when the Romans took over Judaea.  And of course, there have been many other times throughout history when we needed help.  After reading Constantine's Sword and other terrible events in Jewish history, I'm afraid I stopped believing in this Messiah story.


www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm




Good for you Rivers that you stopped believing in an individual messiah. I did it too when I finally came to the understanding that the Messiah could not be an individual but the collective in the People of Israel, the Jewish People in general. The logic of this view is that the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we supposed to expect a new messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The etymology for a coming Messiah applies to the return of Israel from exile.


Ben

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 8:14PM #12
ffb
Posts: 2,220

Mar 27, 2012 -- 2:17PM, Ben Masada wrote:

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:17PM, ffb wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 6:55AM, ffb wrote:


i think you are very mistaken. not only wasn't Herzl a "messianic" figure, but his political return was not the same as the biblically foretold messianic return. Your argument is way off base.




Really? In that case, you must stand against Isaiah's view that Cyrus of Persia was a Messianic leader for his proclamation of the end of the Jewish exile in Babylon and the return of the People to the Land of Israel, and for his massive financial assistance in the rebuilding of the Temple. That's in Isaiah 45:1. The man was not even a Jew. Theodor Herzl was a legitimate Jew, member of God's People. Was Isaiah also way off base?


Ben




Koresh was not a messianic leader. He was an anointed king. Your question has been asked and answered


"Now was Koresh the Mashiach? Rather it means that the Holy One Blessed be He said to the Mashiach 'I said (of Koresh), he shall build My house and gather My exiles' (Yeshiyahu 45:13) and he (only) said, 'Whosoever there is among you of all his people… let him go up'" (Megilah 11b).


 


try this quote to clarify the use in Isaiah of the word "anointed"


 


It is used in Tanach to refer to a number of people including
priests, kings, and even the Persian king Koresh (in
Yishayahu 45:1). But when the Jews speak of Moshiach
they generally mean the royal descendant of David who will
lead the Jewish people, and indeed the whole world, into
Yemos HaMoshiach.


Herzl was not a king or priest so he was not anointed and was thus not even an anointed person let alone a messianic figure. His task was not to rebuild the temple - his goal was a secular, political nation.




There are many kinds of "anointed:" Kings, High Priests, Prophets, etc. Although Messiah is the Hebrew term for anointed, no one has ever been anointed but the People of Israel in a spiritual manner, according to Habakkuk 3:13. "You O Lord come forth to save Thy People; Thy anointed one."


Moses was a Messianic leader whose mission was to lead the Messiah back home. Cyrus was a messianic leader in terms that he anounced and patronized the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel, in the word of Isaiah in 45:1. And Hertz was a messianic leader in the sense that he struggled to death to induce love in the Jewish People for Zion so that they could return to the Land of Israel. What did Jesus do to at least be entitled with being a messianic leader? When he came, the Jewish People was at home, albeit suffering as a result of the Roman occupation, and when he left the Jews were expelled to the four corners of the earth for another exile of almost 2000 years. Even as a messianic leader he could not classify; let alone the Messiah himself.


Ben


you say there are "many" kinds of anointed. No. There are 3 and you name them all and Herzl was none of them. Neither was Jesus. Neither was a messianic leader. And you still confuse the anointed with the future messiah because you conflate the concepts. That doesnt' solve anything but it explains part of the problem you are having with the "messianic" notion.


Habakuk 3:13 is part of a list of things god did. God saved one of those who had been anointed (rashi says this refers to Saul and David while the Iben Ezra says "a king of Judah" The radak says it refers to a future messiah when the war which ushers in the messianic era is raging. The metzudat david says it refers to Chizkiyahu, king of Judah.) So? None of them seems to mention Herzl.


Moses's mission was to lead the people, bnot the messiah and Cyrus was destined to rebuild the temple, but neither was a Messiah in any end-of-days sense. Herzl was never anointed, was not a king, or priest and creating love of Israel is not part of the Messiah's prophetic job, so please, don't make things up. He was a political figure, not a religious leader. In fact, the religious community was against what he did.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 10:11PM #13
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

BS"D


It wasn't all Herzl's fault.  The WZC did to Herzl's ideology what the alleged Judas did to the alleged Jesus - betrayal and staining the ideology with the blood of innocents.   The WZC majority pushed and pushed to achieve Statehood "by any means possible" and when the unthinkable happened it was used as an excuse to do all kinds of similarly immoral things (like stranding poor refugees in ships to be sunk by the British, murdering innocent Mandate officials and the worst of them all - surrendering the Temple Mount after it was won back and that act alone has caused and continues to be the evildoers' justification for murder after murder - possibly even resulting in the primary catalyst for the next World War.) 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2012 - 7:04AM #14
river8101
Posts: 5,561

I think the Messiah story is just that.  A story, a myth.  Suffering Jews hoping and telling stories that someday God will send someone one to save them.   Just like the stories Christians tell about Jesus. He will save you, (after you die of course).  Sure.  You can't refute that story.  Nobody's come back and proved it, except in other stories that can't be proved, which is why faith is such a big deal in Christianity.


"Can't believe everything you read in the newspapers."


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 4:36PM #15
Ben Masada
Posts: 2,808

Mar 27, 2012 -- 8:14PM, ffb wrote:

Mar 27, 2012 -- 2:17PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:17PM, ffb wrote:


Mar 23, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Ben Masada wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 6:55AM, ffb wrote:


i think you are very mistaken. not only wasn't Herzl a "messianic" figure, but his political return was not the same as the biblically foretold messianic return. Your argument is way off base.




Really? In that case, you must stand against Isaiah's view that Cyrus of Persia was a Messianic leader for his proclamation of the end of the Jewish exile in Babylon and the return of the People to the Land of Israel, and for his massive financial assistance in the rebuilding of the Temple. That's in Isaiah 45:1. The man was not even a Jew. Theodor Herzl was a legitimate Jew, member of God's People. Was Isaiah also way off base?


Ben




Koresh was not a messianic leader. He was an anointed king. Your question has been asked and answered


"Now was Koresh the Mashiach? Rather it means that the Holy One Blessed be He said to the Mashiach 'I said (of Koresh), he shall build My house and gather My exiles' (Yeshiyahu 45:13) and he (only) said, 'Whosoever there is among you of all his people… let him go up'" (Megilah 11b).


 


try this quote to clarify the use in Isaiah of the word "anointed"


 


It is used in Tanach to refer to a number of people including
priests, kings, and even the Persian king Koresh (in
Yishayahu 45:1). But when the Jews speak of Moshiach
they generally mean the royal descendant of David who will
lead the Jewish people, and indeed the whole world, into
Yemos HaMoshiach.


Herzl was not a king or priest so he was not anointed and was thus not even an anointed person let alone a messianic figure. His task was not to rebuild the temple - his goal was a secular, political nation.




There are many kinds of "anointed:" Kings, High Priests, Prophets, etc. Although Messiah is the Hebrew term for anointed, no one has ever been anointed but the People of Israel in a spiritual manner, according to Habakkuk 3:13. "You O Lord come forth to save Thy People; Thy anointed one."


Moses was a Messianic leader whose mission was to lead the Messiah back home. Cyrus was a messianic leader in terms that he anounced and patronized the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel, in the word of Isaiah in 45:1. And Hertz was a messianic leader in the sense that he struggled to death to induce love in the Jewish People for Zion so that they could return to the Land of Israel. What did Jesus do to at least be entitled with being a messianic leader? When he came, the Jewish People was at home, albeit suffering as a result of the Roman occupation, and when he left the Jews were expelled to the four corners of the earth for another exile of almost 2000 years. Even as a messianic leader he could not classify; let alone the Messiah himself.


Ben




you say there are "many" kinds of anointed. No. There are 3 and you name them all and Herzl was none of them. Neither was Jesus. Neither was a messianic leader. And you still confuse the anointed with the future messiah because you conflate the concepts. That doesnt' solve anything but it explains part of the problem you are having with the "messianic" notion.


Habakuk 3:13 is part of a list of things god did. God saved one of those who had been anointed (rashi says this refers to Saul and David while the Iben Ezra says "a king of Judah" The radak says it refers to a future messiah when the war which ushers in the messianic era is raging. The metzudat david says it refers to Chizkiyahu, king of Judah.) So? None of them seems to mention Herzl.


Moses's mission was to lead the people, bnot the messiah and Cyrus was destined to rebuild the temple, but neither was a Messiah in any end-of-days sense. Herzl was never anointed, was not a king, or priest and creating love of Israel is not part of the Messiah's prophetic job, so please, don't make things up. He was a political figure, not a religious leader. In fact, the religious community was against what he did.




You seem to imply that one must be literally anointed as Samuel anointed Saul and later, David with the anointing oil. That's the problem with people who read the Scriptures with literal pre-conceived notions. Who anointed Cyrus, for instance, that Isaiah would refer to him in his prophetic visions as an anointed of the Lord? None. But, metaphorically, he had been anointed. Did Herzl have to be anointed with oil to be considered an anointed to induce love for Zion on the Jews in exile to return and rebuild the Land of Israel? Obviously not. Did you perhaps think that someone should have amended the Tanach to add Hertz as our modern anointed one? Obviously not.


And last but not least, I do not understand how you can see Saul and David in Habakkuk 3:13, when the text is quite clear that the prophet is talking about the People as being the anointed one. Perhaps you prefer to believe in an individual Messiah dreamed by those who cannot research for themselves and prefer to eat their food already chewed by others. If you are of those who believe in an individual Messiah, tell me, are we supposed to expect a Messiah in every generation? Oh yes, because the individual is born, lives his span of life and eventually dies. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. What for? To serve as the means to convey God's holiness in the sight of the nations, according Ezekiel 20:41.


Ben

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 4:50PM #16
Ben Masada
Posts: 2,808

Mar 27, 2012 -- 10:11PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


BS"D


It wasn't all Herzl's fault.  The WZC did to Herzl's ideology what the alleged Judas did to the alleged Jesus - betrayal and staining the ideology with the blood of innocents.   The WZC majority pushed and pushed to achieve Statehood "by any means possible" and when the unthinkable happened it was used as an excuse to do all kinds of similarly immoral things (like stranding poor refugees in ships to be sunk by the British, murdering innocent Mandate officials and the worst of them all - surrendering the Temple Mount after it was won back and that act alone has caused and continues to be the evildoers' justification for murder after murder - possibly even resulting in the primary catalyst for the next World War.) 




The exile of almost 2000 years had been over, and, besides, something had to be done to take the Jewish People after the Holocaust and back to Israel. Nobody else in the whole world was willing to absorb those who had escaped from the flames of Europe, even the United States. And England, worse of them all, would struggle to prevent the escaping Jews from  entering their own Land of Israel. So, Herzl finally understood that he could no longer trust Gentiles as the Jewish People was concerned, since the grueling experience with the Dreifus affair in France. 


Ben

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 4:51PM #17
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Mar 28, 2012 -- 7:04AM, river8101 wrote:


I think the Messiah story is just that.  A story, a myth.  Suffering Jews hoping and telling stories that someday God will send someone one to save them.   Just like the stories Christians tell about Jesus. He will save you, (after you die of course).  Sure.  You can't refute that story.  Nobody's come back and proved it, except in other stories that can't be proved, which is why faith is such a big deal in Christianity.


"Can't believe everything you read in the newspapers."





I agree.


The Christians messiah makes even less sense to me, because the Christian's messiah is saving people from their own god. Which I find not only disturbing but creepy.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 4:56PM #18
Ben Masada
Posts: 2,808

Mar 28, 2012 -- 7:04AM, river8101 wrote:


I think the Messiah story is just that.  A story, a myth.  Suffering Jews hoping and telling stories that someday God will send someone one to save them.   Just like the stories Christians tell about Jesus. He will save you, (after you die of course).  Sure.  You can't refute that story.  Nobody's come back and proved it, except in other stories that can't be proved, which is why faith is such a big deal in Christianity.


"Can't believe everything you read in the newspapers."





I can't agree with you more. As long as we think of an individual Messiah who is supposed to come to save us, it is nothing but the preservation of a myth. Just wish thinking. We have got to persuade ourselves through Scriptural research and Logic that the Messiah is collective in ourselves, the People of Israel. Rashi thought so; and so did Maimonides and many other thinkers of the same size.


Ben

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 5:22PM #19
ffb
Posts: 2,220

 "Did Herzl have to be anointed with oil to be considered an anointed to induce love for Zion on the Jews in exile to return and rebuild the Land of Israel? "


Yes. Yes he would have to. He wasn't. Calling him "anointed" because to your interpretation he did something which you see as analogous to what you think the role of the (or a) messiah is doesn;t make it so. You are inventing a role and qualifications. Feel free. I'll sit back and giggle.


 


"I do not understand how you can see Saul and David in Habakkuk 3:13, when the text is quite clear that the prophet is talking about the People as being the anointed one. "


ok. you don't understand. That doesn't bother me. Greater minds than yours do understand, as cited. They understand the grammar of the verse. You are inventing a reading because it supports what you want to find.


"If you are of those who believe in an individual Messiah, tell me, are we supposed to expect a Messiah in every generation?"


Yes, we are supposed to expect him every day and in each generation, there is someone who COULD be the messiah. So far, that person has not been the messiah because the time is not right. Pity you don't know the basics of Judaism and the qualifications for and definition of the messiah. Feel frre to ask. Learning is good.


"The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever, "


Herzl is dead.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 5:47PM #20
vra
Posts: 6,403

Personally, I've looked many times at what are often called the "messianic verses", and I tend to think with most of them that they tend to be quite vague and/or may actually refer to something that's dealing with events that were already taking place or had taken place, but sometimes in a possibly symbolic sense.  An example I can use is in Deutero-Isaiah dealing with the Suffering Servant accounts, whereas it seems to be referring to an individual but at other times to the people Israel. 


Anyhow, my feeling that if there's a personal Messiah, we won't know until he appears and succeeds, and if there's a Messianic Age, then we won't know that until when we get to that point.  Until then, if ever, there's still the Law.

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