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Switch to Forum Live View Luke 17:21 and the Kingdom of God
2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 12:50PM #121
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

I agree with lope, but Blue will never be satisfied because these things cannot be proven in the laboratory.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 1:21PM #122
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

heretic:


Is it not possible that there IS an afterlife, AND that it has nothing to do with balancing the scales of justice concerning what happened during Earthly life? Assuming that it is about rewarding the good people and punishing the wicked has always struck me as demoting God down to the status of Santa Claus with his list of who's been naughty and who's been nice.



Anything is "possible," but I have never heard the after life discussed without it being a reward for righteous living, i.e. the resurrection of the righteous dead. The punishment, on the other hand, I think is newer addition, a la Dante's inferno of the Middle Ages. The "punishment" in Jewish tradition was that one did not get to go to the kingdom of God at the end of history.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 2:12PM #123
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Mar 22, 2012 -- 1:21PM, howiedds wrote:


heretic:


Is it not possible that there IS an afterlife, AND that it has nothing to do with balancing the scales of justice concerning what happened during Earthly life? Assuming that it is about rewarding the good people and punishing the wicked has always struck me as demoting God down to the status of Santa Claus with his list of who's been naughty and who's been nice.



Anything is "possible," but I have never heard the after life discussed without it being a reward for righteous living, i.e. the resurrection of the righteous dead. The punishment, on the other hand, I think is newer addition, a la Dante's inferno of the Middle Ages. The "punishment" in Jewish tradition was that one did not get to go to the kingdom of God at the end of history.




Nothing wrong with a new idea, is there? The fact that the addition of concepts about damnation was a lousy idea doesn't mean that all new ideas are lousy.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 6:53PM #124
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Heretic said:   


"Is it not possible that there IS an afterlife, AND that it has nothing to do with balancing the scales of justice concerning what happened during Earthly life? Assuming that it is about rewarding the good people and punishing the wicked has always struck me as demoting God down to the status of Santa Claus with his list of who's been naughty and who's been nice."


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Science maintains that everything that occurs in this universe follows certain pre-existing laws, some of which may be unknown at this time.  So


IF there exists life of the individual after death, THEN


1.  There must exist something in each individual that survives the physical destruction of the body, something that has not been identified yet, but occasionally called "soul."


2.  All individuals possessing these "souls" will enter the life-after-death environment following their physical death.


3.  It would seem reasonable to expect that this transfer, being a normal part of existence, will occur immediately after the individual's physical death and not at some arbitrary future time.


4.  Science has no knowledge that allows it to separate individuals possessing such "souls" from those who do not, so it has no basis to arbitrary limit its existence to the human species.


5.  Using the analogy of life of the fetus and the human, science can postulate that the path of each soul in the afterlife may be affected by the environment experienced by the physical human.     

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:03PM #125
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Jim, those propositions seem reasonable to me.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:29PM #126
Blü
Posts: 24,924

Heretic


I make no supposition that an afterlife [...] involves the preservation of an individual's human personality.


Then - as you in effect point out - it wouldn't matter whether there were an afterlife or not.  On death the person would still have ceased to exist as a 'self', and still (in terms of such a 'self') would know nothing ever again.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 7:33PM #127
Blü
Posts: 24,924

Jim


Blue will never be satisfied because these things cannot be proven in the laboratory.


No examinable evidence suggests, let alone demonstrates, that supernatural beings exist in objective realty, but the problem goes rather deeper than that - we don't even have a clear concept of what we're talking about. 


For example, we don't have a definition of 'supernatural being' that's useful both for theology and for reasoned enquiry.  So if tomorrow we find what we think is a supernatural being out there, we have no objective test to tell us whether it is or not. 


If I were defending the proposition that supernatural beings are not imaginary (and thus have objective existence), I'd regard that as a major gap in my case.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:19PM #128
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:33PM, Blü wrote:


 


If I were defending the proposition that supernatural beings are not imaginary (and thus have objective existence), I'd regard that as a major gap in my case.




By definition anything supernatural is outside or transends nature.  Therefore all our equipment that we use to examine nature would fail to detect the supernatural characteristics of whatever has them.  If we could detect them and analyze them, then they would cease to be supernatural and they would be natural.  

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:48PM #129
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Mar 22, 2012 -- 11:19PM, JimRigas wrote:


Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:33PM, Blü wrote:


If I were defending the proposition that supernatural beings are not imaginary (and thus have objective existence), I'd regard that as a major gap in my case.




By definition anything supernatural is outside or transends nature.  Therefore all our equipment that we use to examine nature would fail to detect the supernatural characteristics of whatever has them.  If we could detect them and analyze them, then they would cease to be supernatural and they would be natural.  




It has been said that a sufficiently advanced civiliaztion will always look magical to a less advanced culture. Perhaps what we think is supernatural is actually natural but currently inexplicable to us. I have no evidence for this, but I tend to believe the idea that God is the Omega Point at the end of time and space, toward which we are all evolving, yet omnipresent throughout time and space as the pervasive intelligence of the universe even as we, trapped in linear time, are evolving toward that point (evolving in the sense of contributing the totality of the knowledge and experience we have gained in life as the facet of God that is within us in life returns to and rejoins the fullness of God in the universe. There is nothing supernatural about it, yet it obviously is non-demonstrable.


(By the way, apologies if that sounded hopelessly New Age; I am not a knee-jerk devotee of New Age thinking. This Omega Point concept, which some scientists accept, just rings true for me.)

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:41AM #130
Blü
Posts: 24,924

Jim


By definition anything supernatural is outside or transends nature.


We presently have  no reason to think that 'supernatural' or 'outside nature' means anything except 'imaginary' or 'non-existent'.


Therefore all our equipment that we use to examine nature would fail to detect the supernatural characteristics of whatever has them.


Exactly as if they were imaginary or non-existent.


If we could detect them and analyze them, then they would cease to be supernatural and they would be natural.


As if they were real. 

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