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Switch to Forum Live View Jehovah's Witnesses joy concerning our changes in beliefs.
2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 6:02AM #251
Newtonian
Posts: 12,099

Understandingtruth - My post was accurate - though you have added other objections I did not address  which muddied the waters, so to speak.  I do not have time to address additional points yet - however, your charge that my post was inaccurate is false.


First, you need to read OP (post 1) again, to get the context of my responses to Ephphatha. 


Then go to post 15 where I specify which website I was critiqueing and post 16 where Ephphatha welcomes my addressing this websites accusations.


Then go to post 18 where I show that the charge that we do not accurately present our history is false in that we do report our errors regarding 1914.


I also showed other charges against us were false, e.g. this post:


Mar 13, 2012 -- 6:30AM, Newtonian wrote:


You all - back to some of my purposes for this thread:


 2.  To document changes in our beliefs or understandings over the years, including the reasons for those changes.


3.  To study and add to research involving these changes.   Primarily Scriptural research, of course.


4.  To document statements in our literature whereby we state that our literature is not inspired but is fallible while the Bible is infallible.


5.  To expose false accusations about our literature that have been posted in this forum - such as that we are liars.


6.  My critique of specific anti-witness links concerning changes in our understandings.


7.  A study of the history of Jehovah's Witnesses, as we report it - such as in our book on our history:  "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom.


(6) the link I am critiqueing - www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-p...


See my previous posts showing that we accurately portray our history and give details in more detailed portrayals - especially in our book on our history. The link states:


"1914 is the pivotal date for the existence of Jehovah's Witnesses"


and:


"1914 is the basis for the interpretation of the majority of other Bible prophecies."


Well, the most important date to us is the date of Jesus' death - which is Nisan 14, 33 CE.   And this is also our only Holy Day - which this year falls on 4/5/12 after sundown. Also, simply going to our website shows that 1914 is NOT our main focus - for our focus, see our website:


 www.watchtower.org


That we, as a religion, exist because of 1914 is frankly a ridiculous assertion - and anyone who knows anything about us realizes that the date Nisan 14, 33 CE is pivotal for us - as this is when Jesus died for our sins and it is the only day Jesus asked us to observe in his memory. 


And that the majority of other Bible prophecies involve 1914 is also a ridiculous assertion. Of course, the link does not attempt to list the Bible prophecies they allege we use 1914 as a basis to interpret - nor does it even back up its false assertion that we interpret Bible prophecies - we rarely intrepret Scripture - human interpretion is characteristically fallible.   Rather, we let the Bible interpret itself.


Amazingly, the link does not even detail the prophecies and Scriptures upon which we have determined the date 1914 - no mention of Daniel 4:17 or Luke 21:24 or Revelation 11 & 12, etc. A good summary of this is here:


 www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_10.htm


Obviously, the fact that World War I started in 1914 is also a very important basis for believing the time of the end began in 1914 - not just the 7 times of Daniel 4:17 which run for 2520 years from 607 BCE to 1914 CE.  And that the spanish influenze was in 1918, etc. All time of the end prophecies will naturally involve the date of the beginning of the last days - but that is not the primary basis for belief we are living in the last days - there are so many other Bible prophecies that are being fulfilled besides Daniel 4:17!


And, notably, the anti-witness link does not mention the many other Bible prophecies we discuss in our literature which do not involve 1914. Here are a few of the many Bible prophecies we discuss on our website which do not involve 1914:


 www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_02.htm


This link goes into Daniel's prophecy about the Messiah: the 70 weeks of years in Daniel 9:24-27.


www.watchtower.org/e/19990715/article_02...


This link considers a number of Bible prophecies that do not involve 1914. Do I need to go on to further expose the false assertions in this anti-witness link - does anyone on this thread still think this anti-witness link is a reliable, accurate source?




So, understanding truth - on the other points you wish addressed - do you actually believe we believed 2000 was a significant date in Biblical prophecy?


I know better because I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses since 1960.


We have made many errors - 2000 was not one of them, however.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 8:29AM #252
Presentsiimpletense
Posts: 968

Jun 6, 2012 -- 5:38AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ann - You forget that Jesus chose the faithful and discreet slave in the first century - Matthew 24,25 has both a first century and current fulfillment.   And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.





Please provide scripture of the first century fullfilment of Matthew 24:25.

In the vindication of the truth
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 9:51AM #253
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 6, 2012 -- 5:38AM, Newtonian wrote:

And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.




For that to be true of the WT Org they would have to have been teaching the truth when Jesus supposedly returned in 1914.  They weren't. 


They also admit they aren't teaching the same good news the apostles were teaching.


Benefit From Theocratic Ministry School Education (published by the ‘WT’s ‘faithful and discreet slave” in 2002) p. 279 ***The Message We Must Proclaim ***

“This good news of the kingdom”

WHEN providing details regarding the sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus foretold: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”—Matt. 24:14.


Exactly what is this message that is to be given such wide publicity? It is about the Kingdom for which Jesus taught us to pray to God, saying: “Let your kingdom come.” (Matt. 6:10) Revelation 11:15 describes it as “the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ” because the ruling authority originates with Jehovah and is conferred upon Christ as King. Note, however, that the message that Jesus said would be proclaimed in our day goes beyond what his followers preached in the first century. They told people: “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Luke 10:9) Jesus, the one anointed to be King, was then in their midst. But as recorded at Matthew 24:14, Jesus foretold the worldwide announcement of another development in the fulfillment of God’s purpose."

*** w67 12/15 p. 753 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached***What vital thing has now been added to the good news of the kingdom of God that Jesus Christ and his zealous apostles used to preach nineteen hundred years ago?  This, namely, the birth of God's Messianic kingdom in the heavens at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914....What a joy-inspiring addition or enlargement to the good news now to be preached!...

*** w67 12/15 pp. 753-754 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***Not before the “appointed times of the nations” ended in the fall of 1914 could the good news be preached of the newborn, established heavenly kingdom of God and of his Messiah. This, then, must be the good news that Jesus Christ in his prophecy said had to be preached first in all the nations. (Mark 13:10) This generation of human society that has seen and experienced the world events since the Gentile Times closed in 1914—this is the “generation” that will not pass away until all the things foretold have happened, including the preaching of the good news first in all nations.


4 Jesus’ prophecy in Mark 13:10, “Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first,” has not been undergoing fulfillment during the past nineteen centuries. It is only since the second decade of our twentieth century that this prophecy has been undergoing fulfillment. This began to be realized by the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society since the end of the second decade of our century. In the magazine issue of July 1, 1920, of The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence the article was published entitled “Gospel of the Kingdom” and based on the theme text, “‘And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.’—Matthew 24:14.” In the last six paragraphs it said:


5 “It will be noted he does not say the gospel that has been preached to the meek throughout the entire Gospel age shall be preached. What gospel then could he mean? The gospel means good news. The good news here is concerning the end of the old order of things and the establishment of Messiah’s kingdom. It means the dark night of sin and sorrow is passing away. It means that Satan’s empire is falling, never to rise again. It means the sun of righteousness is rising rapidly, its healing beams penetrating the darkness and driving back that which obscures the truth and bringing to the people that which will bless, comfort, strengthen and uplift them. . . .


“It will be observed that in the order named this message must be delivered between the time of the great world war and the time of the ‘great tribulation’ mentioned by the Master in Matthew 24:21, 22. This message could not have been delivered prior to the beginning of the world war…..Since the publishing of that new, up-to-date understanding of the prophetic words of Jesus Christ more and more evidence has piled up in the world events and conditions and in the experience of the International Bible Students to prove that God’s Messianic kingdom was indeed born in the heavens at the due time in 1914 and that “this good news of the kingdom” means the fresh, brand-new information that tells of God’s established kingdom. No news of the day could surpass that for real goodness. For this reason the whole world of mankind deserved to hear this good news, “this gospel of the kingdom.” (Matt. 24:14, AV; NW) And according to Jesus Christ all the world of mankind has to hear it. “In all the nations the good news has to be preached,” said he.—Mark 13:10.




Two more interesting quotes to ponder:

*** w58 4/15 p. 238 pars. 15-16 The Time to Sing the New Song ***
The momentous year reached by these prayerful calculations was the year of World War I, yes, 1914. The announced date is in print, beyond dispute!



16 Prior to that unforgettable year the anointed Christians proclaimed the good news of God’s kingdom that was coming. Since that year God has supplied the theme of a new song. For in 1914 the heavenly Father and Source of theocratic government brought that glorious kingdom to birth by enthroning and crowning the Seed of his woman, the Heir of the covenant that was made with David for the everlasting kingdom. That was something new indeed. The birth of that Messianic government brought into operation a new ruling organization for all the universe, for angels and for men. It brought into existence the capital part of Jehovah’s universal organization, and all holy angels and all men of good will must bow to it according to God’s command. There had never been anything like it before in the universe. For the whole universe this was good news. So in 1914 the good message about God's kingdom to come had grown old, out of date."



It's also in their history book, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, p.[jv p.137]:


As the events following 1914 began to unfold and the Bible Students compared these with what the Master had foretold, they gradually came to appreciate that they were living in the last days of the old system and that they had been since 1914. They also came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ’s invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personally returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King. They saw and accepted the vital responsibility that was theirs to proclaim “this good news of the kingdom” for a witness to all nations during this critical time of human history.—Matt. 24:3-14.

What exactly was the message about the Kingdom that they were to preach? Was it any different from the message of the first-century Christians?

............The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article “Birth of the Nation.” It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born—established—in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth. This was the good news that was to be proclaimed, the news that God’s Kingdom was already in operation.


It's interesting to note that three years after the birth of the Kingdom in 1914, these blokes were still teaching it was the birth of the antichrist!


Woodzz

Moderated by nanalulu222 on Jun 07, 2012 - 10:43PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 1:46PM #254
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,201

Ann - You forget that Jesus chose the faithful and discreet slave in the first century



LOL. Don't try to negate my arguments by suggesting I'm talking about something else. The 'appointment' we've actually been discussing is the slave's "appointment over all the Master's belongings" which was supposed to have occurred in 1919.


And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.



There, that is what we've been talking about. Yes, they were so faithful that they completely missed Jesus second 'second presence' and his appointing a slave 'class' over all his belongings - being totally unaware of both supposed events until many years later.


Intel simplified matters by pointing you all to the things Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 - have we seen those earthquakes in one place after another, for example?



Did you know that earthquakes have always been a feature of earth history from time immemorial? Did you also know that it has been scientifically established that earthquakes have not increased or worsened over the past century and thus cannot be pointed to as any unique eschatological 'sign'?


earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/topics/increas...


www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakes/earth...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 1:52PM #255
Kemmer
Posts: 16,408


Kemmer - Of course, you fail to mention that Jehovah's Witnesses refused to heil Hitler, join his armies or his Nazi party.   This is all well documented at the National Holocaust Museum- so if all Germans had been Jehovah's Witnesses, Hitler could not have perpetrated his horrors on mankind at all!



Lots of people apart from JWs in Germany were anti-Nazi so that is not a particularly outstanding touchstone of JW individualism as JWs would have everyone believe--that they were a "shining light" of resistance. 


Your fear is similar to the fear of the chief priests and the pharisees



Fear?


 

The fact is that the Bible foretold the 7th world power will hold sway all the way to Armageddon



Oh that's right; JWs have made the USA and the UK into a joint "world power" which is silly.


 As our book on Revelation notes:


 Finally, the Allied nations swallowed up the Nazi-Fascist juggernaut, to the relief of the Witnesses who had suffered under cruel dictatorships. Persecutions did not stop altogether, for the wrath of the dragon has continued until today, and he keeps up the war against those who “have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.” In many lands, loyal Witnesses are still in prison, and some still die because of their integrity. But in some of these lands, the authorities from time to time relax their pressure, and the Witnesses enjoy a greater measure of freedom. Thus, in fulfillment of the prophecy, the earth continues to swallow up the river of persecution.



Oh cry me a river!  With all the "persecution" going on around the world, Muslim sects murdering each dozens at a time, etc., Hindus and Muslims butchering each other by the busload, the JW penchant for howling "persecution" everytime they get in trouble for not obeying their local laws pales into less than insignificance.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 2:32PM #256
Newtonian
Posts: 12,099

Jun 6, 2012 -- 8:29AM, Presentsiimpletense wrote:


Jun 6, 2012 -- 5:38AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ann - You forget that Jesus chose the faithful and discreet slave in the first century - Matthew 24,25 has both a first century and current fulfillment.   And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.





Please provide scripture of the first century fullfilment of Matthew 24:25.




Presentsimple - thank you. 


Matthew 24,25 contains Jesus' answer to this 3 part question:


(Matthew 24:3) While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”


1.  when will these things be.


2.  what will be the sign of your presence (Gr. parousia)


3.  what will be the sign of the conclusion (Gr syntelia) of the system of things (Gr. aion).


It is #1 that is the first century.   The disciples were referring to what Jesus had just said when they referred to "these things" - to wit:


(Matthew 24:1, 2) . . . Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”


This was the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which was destoyed by the Romans in 70 CE.    Most of the things Jesus foretold had a local fulfillment from 33 CE until 70 CE.   The slave was chosen in 33 CE, after Jesus arrived in the resurrection.


Additional Scriptures and thoughts on this are in this article in our literature:


"The


Faithful Slave Appears


6


The new nation, “the Israel of God,” is made up of spiritual Israelites. (Gal. 6:16; Rom. 2:28, 29; 9:6) It came into existence with the outpouring of God’s spirit at Pentecost 33 C.E. Thereafter, all spirit-anointed Christians became part of the nation that now served as the slave class appointed by the Master, Jesus Christ. Each member of that nation was given the commission to preach the good news and make disciples. (Matt. 28:19, 20) But was every member of that group to be involved with providing spiritual food at the proper time? Let us see how the Scriptures answer this question.


7


When Jesus appointed his 12 apostles, their primary work involved being sent out to preach the good news to others. (Read Mark 3:13-15.) This assignment was in harmony with the basic meaning of the Greek word apostolos, which is derived from a verb meaning simply “send forth.” However, as time went on and the Christian congregation was about to be established, the role of an apostle became an “office of oversight.”—Acts 1:20-26.


8


What was the primary concern of the 12 apostles? The answer can be seen in the events following the day of Pentecost. When a dispute arose about the daily distribution of food to widows, the 12 apostles gathered the disciples and said: “It is not pleasing for us to leave the word of God to distribute food to tables.” (Read Acts 6:1-6.) The apostles then appointed other spiritually qualified brothers to care for this “necessary business” so that the apostles could devote themselves “to the ministry of the word.” This arrangement resulted in Jehovah’s blessing as “the word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.” (Acts 6:7) So the primary responsibility for the spiritual feeding work rested with the apostles.—Acts 2:42.


9


In time, others were entrusted with weighty responsibilities. Paul and Barnabas, under the direction of holy spirit, were sent out as missionaries by the Antioch congregation. They also became known as apostles, although they were not included in the original 12. (Acts 13:1-3; 14:14; Gal. 1:19) Their appointment was confirmed by the governing body in Jerusalem. (Gal. 2:7-10) Shortly after that, Paul had a part in dispensing spiritual food. He wrote his first inspired letter.


10


However, were all spirit-anointed Christians involved in overseeing the preaching work and in preparing spiritual food? No. The apostle Paul tells us: “Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they?” (1 Cor. 12:29) Although all spirit-begotten Christians engaged in the preaching work, only a very limited number—just eight different men—were used to write the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures." - "The Watchtower," 6/15/09, pp. 21,22


Of course, there is the more current fulfillment of Mt. 24,25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 during Jesus 'parousia' leading up to Jesus' coming (Gr. erchomai) at the great tribulation aka the syntelia of the aion/ conclusion of the system of things.


Thus we have seen great wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes - and the good news of God's Kingdom being preached to all nations (Matthew 24:14) - and not just on the local scale seen 33 to 70 CE!



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 2:47PM #257
Kemmer
Posts: 16,408

Thus we have seen great wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes - and the good news of God's Kingdom being preached to all nations



So JWs think there have been no wars, famines, pestilences or earthquakes BEFORE 1914?


The good news of Jesus' redemption of sins, or the "good news" that God is going to kill all non-JWs?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 2:59PM #258
Newtonian
Posts: 12,099

Hi Ann - my response is in blue:


Jun 6, 2012 -- 1:46PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


Ann - You forget that Jesus chose the faithful and discreet slave in the first century



LOL. Don't try to negate my arguments by suggesting I'm talking about something else.


I did, and I didn't. Surprised


I am reminding you that Mt.24,25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 also had a first century fufillment.


The 'appointment' we've actually been discussing is the slave's "appointment over all the Master's belongings" which was supposed to have occurred in 1919.


Yes, after having occured in 33 CE.   Do you understand Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds?


See:


www.watchtower.org/e/200702/article_03.h...


And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.



There, that is what we've been talking about. Yes, they were so faithful that they completely missed Jesus second 'second presence' and his appointing a slave 'class' over all his belongings - being totally unaware of both supposed events until many years later.


Yes, the same as in the first century fulfillment, where the faithful slave neither understood the timing nor which Israel was involved in the establishing of God's Kingdom, to wit:


(Acts 1:6, 7) When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;


The faithful slave of 33 CE had both the timing wrong and thought it was earthly Israel that would be the re-establishing of the kingdom of God.  It was not until years later that the slave gave the food at the proper time, revealing details about heavenly Jerusalem - e.g. Hebrews 12:22. 


That the slave in the first century got these things wrong does not mean they were not faithful - it simply meant it was not the proper time for those spiritual meals!


Intel simplified matters by pointing you all to the things Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 - have we seen those earthquakes in one place after another, for example?



Did you know that earthquakes have always been a feature of earth history from time immemorial? Did you also know that it has been scientifically established that earthquakes have not increased or worsened over the past century and thus cannot be pointed to as any unique eschatological 'sign'?


earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/topics/increas...


www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakes/earth...




Ann - so you wish to go on record that we are not living in the last days Jesus foretold?


Many feel as you do:


(2 Peter 3:3, 4) . . .For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”


To me it is obvious -  just watching those last two great tsunamis for example.   Hey, if you don't believe we have seen great earthquakes in one place after another, that is up to you!


As for us, see:


www.watchtower.org/e/20051001/article_02...


www.watchtower.org/e/20081001/article_03...


An excerpt:


"Massive Earthquakes. Jesus said: “There will be  great earthquakes.” (Luke 21:11) If it seems to you that now more people than  ever before are affected by earthquakes, you are correct. “Suddenly we are  seeing a spurt in seismic activity globally,” observed Indian seismologist R. K. Chadha  in 2007. “Nobody knows why.” Moreover, rapid population growth in areas prone  to earthquakes has increased the toll of these disasters. The earthquake that  struck the Indian Ocean in 2004 and the tsunami that followed made that year  the “deadliest in nearly 500 years for earthquakes” and “the second most fatal  in recorded history,” according to the U.S. Geological Survey."

Actually, the earthquake in China (1975?) may have had the highest death toll - estimates are incredibly variant as to how many died.


Remember, Jesus said his followers would see all these things, not just earthquakes.  In past history there was a great earthquake - and there was a great plague - but not at the same time.   And that is just 2 of the things Jesus foretold.  Never before have all nations heard the good news of God's Kingdom (Matthew 24:14) - in fact, one might argue that this has still not yet been completely fulfilled - but certainly it was never fulfilled in the past except in the more local 1st century fulfillment.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 5:30PM #259
mrjordan
Posts: 2,114

Jun 6, 2012 -- 2:59PM, Newtonian wrote:


Hi Ann - my response is in blue:


Jun 6, 2012 -- 1:46PM, AnnOMaly wrote:


Ann - You forget that Jesus chose the faithful and discreet slave in the first century



LOL. Don't try to negate my arguments by suggesting I'm talking about something else.


I did, and I didn't. Surprised


I am reminding you that Mt.24,25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 also had a first century fufillment.


The 'appointment' we've actually been discussing is the slave's "appointment over all the Master's belongings" which was supposed to have occurred in 1919.


Yes, after having occured in 33 CE.   Do you understand Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds?


See:


www.watchtower.org/e/200702/article_03.h...


And, as Intel posted, the faithful slave was already faithful before they were appointed over all Jesus' belongings.



There, that is what we've been talking about. Yes, they were so faithful that they completely missed Jesus second 'second presence' and his appointing a slave 'class' over all his belongings - being totally unaware of both supposed events until many years later.


Yes, the same as in the first century fulfillment, where the faithful slave neither understood the timing nor which Israel was involved in the establishing of God's Kingdom, to wit:


(Acts 1:6, 7) When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;


The faithful slave of 33 CE had both the timing wrong and thought it was earthly Israel that would be the re-establishing of the kingdom of God.  It was not until years later that the slave gave the food at the proper time, revealing details about heavenly Jerusalem - e.g. Hebrews 12:22. 


That the slave in the first century got these things wrong does not mean they were not faithful - it simply meant it was not the proper time for those spiritual meals!


Intel simplified matters by pointing you all to the things Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 - have we seen those earthquakes in one place after another, for example?



Did you know that earthquakes have always been a feature of earth history from time immemorial? Did you also know that it has been scientifically established that earthquakes have not increased or worsened over the past century and thus cannot be pointed to as any unique eschatological 'sign'?


earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/topics/increas...


www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakes/earth...




Ann - so you wish to go on record that we are not living in the last days Jesus foretold?


Many feel as you do:


(2 Peter 3:3, 4) . . .For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”


To me it is obvious -  just watching those last two great tsunamis for example.   Hey, if you don't believe we have seen great earthquakes in one place after another, that is up to you!


As for us, see:


www.watchtower.org/e/20051001/article_02...


www.watchtower.org/e/20081001/article_03...


An excerpt:


"Massive Earthquakes. Jesus said: “There will be  great earthquakes.” (Luke 21:11) If it seems to you that now more people than  ever before are affected by earthquakes, you are correct. “Suddenly we are  seeing a spurt in seismic activity globally,” observed Indian seismologist R. K. Chadha  in 2007. “Nobody knows why.” Moreover, rapid population growth in areas prone  to earthquakes has increased the toll of these disasters. The earthquake that  struck the Indian Ocean in 2004 and the tsunami that followed made that year  the “deadliest in nearly 500 years for earthquakes” and “the second most fatal  in recorded history,” according to the U.S. Geological Survey."

Actually, the earthquake in China (1975?) may have had the highest death toll - estimates are incredibly variant as to how many died.


Remember, Jesus said his followers would see all these things, not just earthquakes.  In past history there was a great earthquake - and there was a great plague - but not at the same time.   And that is just 2 of the things Jesus foretold.  Never before have all nations heard the good news of God's Kingdom (Matthew 24:14) - in fact, one might argue that this has still not yet been completely fulfilled - but certainly it was never fulfilled in the past except in the more local 1st century fulfillment.




Good points Newt. I would also like to add Matthew 24:37-39 where people during the time of Jesus presence would be likened to those in Noah's day. They were more concerned with other things than listening to Noah's message from Jehovah. Today, as in Noah's day, life is filled with distractions to keep our attention directed elsewhere. Thus is why Jesus go on further to say in verse 42, "Keep on the watch". One must ask themselves, 'Am I watching'?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 6:02PM #260
Newtonian
Posts: 12,099


Yes, Mr. Jordan - we must keep on the watch!


Phronesis helped me download our district convention program, which my wife and are are going to on Friday (Mississippi Coliseum, Jackson, Mississippi June 8 - 10).    Though your point was the theme of a different convention, the last talk may apply to your point:


Never LetYour Heart BecomeTerrified! (2Chronicles 20:15,17; 1 Peter 5:8, 9).  


 Of course, our theme is Safeguard your heart.   However, we know what is coming - I have in mind the final attack of God and Magog.  Of course, I haven't heard the talk yet and I wouldn't post its contents anyway since I don't want to spoil it for anyone.


More on thread theme - I am curious what Saturday morning's talk means by motivating right hearted ones to love their spiritual mother (Proverbs 6:20).


Did I miss something or is this new light?   I.e. who is our spiritual mother?   Well, I am going to research that to see if I simply forgot something I had learned already!

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