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Switch to Forum Live View Jehovah's Witnesses joy concerning our changes in beliefs.
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 7:32AM #271
Newtonian
Posts: 11,229

Jun 6, 2012 -- 6:49PM, mrjordan wrote:


Jun 6, 2012 -- 6:07PM, Newtonian wrote:


Hey Mr. Jordan - well, the mother of the bride is:


(Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.


My curiousity is peaked - I will wait for the convention!


 




Ah yes. From where the 'seed' is from.




Yes, in the symbolic drama in Galatians 3 & 4, augmented by Paul's comments in Romans:


Abraham pictures Jehovah as the Father.


Sarah pictures the Jerusalem above as the mother.


Hagar pictures earthly Jerusalem.


Isaac, and the seed of Abraham, pictures Jesus and those who belong to him as his bride.


Rebecca pictures the bride of Christ.


It is interesting that while the Jerusalem above is the mother, the remnant of the seed are attacked by Satan as representing that mother:


(Revelation 12:15-17) . . .And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.


It is also interesting that while the plural seed is not part of their mother, the Jerusalem above (Galatians 4:26), they are associated with heavenly Jerusalem!


(Hebrews 12:22-24) 22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood].


I am not posting what was stated at our convention, btw.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:25AM #272
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:08AM, Newtonian wrote:


Understanding truth - I agree continuing this is pointless.  You wish to choose to believe we taught about the year 2000 what you wish to believe.   I know what we were taught, and you are wrong, as is woodzz.  


Yes, we expected Armageddon by 2000.  We also expected Armageddon by:


1975


1976


1977


....


2012. 


Of course, the fact that we expected Armageddon by 2012 is not evidence we accept the Mayan prophecy either.  


Your more serious problem is your failure to consider the Scriptures in your posts.


While we misunderstood some Scriptures, the Scriptures are nonetheless accurate and the time left is reduced:


(1 Corinthians 7:29) . . .Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. . . .


While there was Scriptural basis for 1975, albeit insufficient - we have never given any Scriptural support for the year 2000 - nor have we specified any date since that error.


Your belief is all in your mind.





No, Newt, I posted quotes that show you weren't saying 'we expect Armageddon any day', they were specific in saying it would be in the 20th century, 2000 being the last year that could be called that.  They gave more than enough reason for their members to see 2000 as the end of this system, with or without scriptural backing.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 4:27PM #273
Oeste
Posts: 3,252

Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:25AM, woodzz wrote:


No, Newt, I posted quotes that show you weren't saying 'we expect Armageddon any day', they were specific in saying it would be in the 20th century, 2000 being the last year that could be called that.  They gave more than enough reason for their members to see 2000 as the end of this system, with or without scriptural backing.



She's got you there Newt.


Look, there's no use regaling against the obvious.The indiscreet slave speculated again. They know full well the WT faithful are going to hang on every printed word, looking for "signs" of Armageddon.


After all, they were spiritually groomed that way by the Watchtower, some of them all their lives. It shouldn't come to you as a surprise.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 6:43PM #274
marken
Posts: 3,636

I  agree  with  Newt  that  the most  telling  part  of  Jesus prophecy  is This  good  news  of  the  Kingdom  will  be  preached,for a witness to  all  the  nations, and  then  the  end  will  come.


To me  the  most  wonderful  part  of  the  good  news  is  that  Jesus  himself  is  educating  anyone  wanting  to learn  about  this  Kingdom  and  he  will  protect  us  as  wickedness  is  destroyed  or  comes  to  an  end.  rev.  7:9-17


with  affection  from Marken

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 8:03PM #275
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:43PM, marken wrote:


I  agree  with  Newt  that  the most  telling  part  of  Jesus prophecy  is This  good  news  of  the  Kingdom  will  be  preached,for a witness to  all  the  nations, and  then  the  end  will  come.


To me  the  most  wonderful  part  of  the  good  news  is  that  Jesus  himself  is  educating  anyone  wanting  to learn  about  this  Kingdom  and  he  will  protect  us  as  wickedness  is  destroyed  or  comes  to  an  end.  rev.  7:9-17


with  affection  from Marken





Dear Marken,


Your "good news" makes me sad.  The most wonderful part of the good news is that Jesus' shed blood brings us into a covenant relationship with our heavenly Father, bringing forgiveness of our sins and reconciliation with God, peace that surpasses understanding as only Jesus could bring about this peace for us, baptizing us in the Holy Spirit so that we are born again, born of God and are now children of God and we will be with Jesus where ever he is in his Kingdom - the new heavens and a new earth.


Won't you come to Jesus, receive him and believe in him, and receive from him the right to become a child of God, one that is born of God, so that you will see and enter the realm of King Jesus' dominion, his Kingdom.


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:45PM #276
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:43PM, marken wrote:


I  agree  with  Newt  that  the most  telling  part  of  Jesus prophecy  is This  good  news  of  the  Kingdom  will  be  preached,for a witness to  all  the  nations, and  then  the  end  will  come.


To me  the  most  wonderful  part  of  the  good  news  is  that  Jesus  himself  is  educating  anyone  wanting  to learn  about  this  Kingdom  and  he  will  protect  us  as  wickedness  is  destroyed  or  comes  to  an  end.  rev.  7:9-17


with  affection  from Marken



It's interesting how JWs can use their success in their preaching work to hang their hats on in order to prove that they are fulfilling prophecy and that they are the true religion. However, as someone else pointed out recently, JWs aren't the only ones who are claiming that they fulfill this prophecy:


The Christian Almanac for 1990 reports that the Gospel has been preached to over 4 billion people, and Christian churches now exist in all 251 countries of the world.

Every year about four billion Gospel tracts are distributed around the globe and over 120 million Bibles. The entire Bible, or portions of it, have now been translated into some 2,062 different languages, and is available to around 98 percent of the world's population.

The Gospel is also preached from over 2,000 Christian radio and television stations, and religious shows can be seen on many more thouGospel to all nationssands of secular stations.

Never in the entire course of history has the Gospel been preached in all the world to all nations as it is right now! Every nation on the face of the earth today has heard the Gospel as Jesus prophesied they would before the end comes.


www.countdown.org/armageddon/gospel.htm&...



Additionally, as far JWs' worldwide preaching work proving that they are the true religion...actually, if you take a closer look at what JWs teach and some of their policies, it reveals a lot of discrepancy and inconsistencies about their teachings and their religion. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 12:14PM #277
Oeste
Posts: 3,252

Jun 15, 2012 -- 8:03PM, woodzz wrote:


Dear Marken,


Your "good news" makes me sad.  The most wonderful part of the good news is that Jesus' shed blood brings us into a covenant relationship with our heavenly Father, bringing forgiveness of our sins and reconciliation with God, peace that surpasses understanding as only Jesus could bring about this peace for us, baptizing us in the Holy Spirit so that we are born again, born of God and are now children of God and we will be with Jesus where ever he is in his Kingdom - the new heavens and a new earth.


Woodzz




VASTLY better news than anything I ever heard from the Watchtower.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 2:15PM #278
mrjordan
Posts: 1,834

From another thread:


FIVE_POINT_DAD: At least a dozen times the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has issued very similar messages and has been wrong every single time without exception.  It amazes me that anyone remains with the Watchtower.  If the Governing Body has never been correct in any date setting, how can you have confidence in anything they teach?  Today, there are two ex-JW for every present JW. You have the largest group of former members of any significiant religious body in the United States. Can you explain why you remain with them?


MRJ: Those that focus on mistakes of their fellow man will have a hard time understanding my view and the view of many other Witnesses. To put it into perspective, I remember hearing or reading about a person that was a Witness when it was discovered there would not just be 144,000 saved but there would be great crowd that no man would be able to number. This opened up salvation from Armageddon to every living person on earth. Now, back to that person that was still a Witness. He said, 'Our Good News of the Kingdom turned into GREAT NEWS of the Kingdom.'


Why would that brother say that? Why didn't he say, 'Well they were wrong again!!' Because he understood the bible's teaching that the light would get brighter. The teachings of the bible would come into better focus as time went on. I share this believe. So do millions of others! I also believe what the bible says about those with insight to the scriptires "will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." Daniel 12:3,4 goes on, “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant." I believe we are in "the time of the end" as Daniel said would come. He also said that during this time of the end those with insight their knowledge would become abundant. I know of no other religion that has such abundant teaching. Look at all the books, magazines, assemblies and special talks the Witnesses have had over their 100 year history. NO religion even comes close. 


Many have said, "If they were wrong then why would be right now?" Applying that logic would undermine writers of the bible. One in particular would be Paul. Once he was a persecutor of Christians. He sent many to their death. Why would Jesus appear to such a seemly unholy man? Paul was certainly "in the wrong" before he became a follower of Jesus. Why would anyone talk to him after the things he had done. Peter is another example. Even though Jesus preached to love your enemies, Peter still took a sword and cut off the ear of the slave of the high priest. As we know Jesus corrected him, but does this mean that we should not listen to peter's accounts in the bible?


Today, literature produced by the WTS is not to replace the bible as so many seem to think it does. It MUST be used WITH the bible. Those that only follow what the literature says without the bible are following the creature and not the creator. These following the creature will be those that fall away easily when the human part of Jehovah's organization is fails due to imperfection.

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 2:40PM #279
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Aug 7, 2012 -- 2:15PM, mrjordan wrote:


From another thread:


FIVE_POINT_DAD: At least a dozen times the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has issued very similar messages and has been wrong every single time without exception.  It amazes me that anyone remains with the Watchtower.  If the Governing Body has never been correct in any date setting, how can you have confidence in anything they teach?  Today, there are two ex-JW for every present JW. You have the largest group of former members of any significiant religious body in the United States. Can you explain why you remain with them?


MRJ: Those that focus on mistakes of their fellow man will have a hard time understanding my view and the view of many other Witnesses. To put it into perspective, I remember hearing or reading about a person that was a Witness when it was discovered there would not just be 144,000 saved but there would be great crowd that no man would be able to number. This opened up salvation from Armageddon to every living person on earth. Now, back to that person that was still a Witness. He said, 'Our Good News of the Kingdom turned into GREAT NEWS of the Kingdom.'



Hi MrJordan, 


Great news, you say? When did this conversation take place, anyway?


Didn't you know the great crowd were taught they were a heavenly class of people......up until Judge Rutherford threw them out of heaven in 1935. 


You can call these false teachings "mistakes" all you want but that won't change the reality that they are false teachings, false prophecies, false dates, falsehoods that you've been sent to preach to others until the men on the governing body decide to change their false teachings to some other false teaching and send you out with that. 


Me thinks you guys need a light bulb that isn't shorting out all the time.


Holly

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 3:25PM #280
mrjordan
Posts: 1,834

Aug 7, 2012 -- 2:40PM, woodzz wrote:


Aug 7, 2012 -- 2:15PM, mrjordan wrote:


From another thread:


FIVE_POINT_DAD: At least a dozen times the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has issued very similar messages and has been wrong every single time without exception.  It amazes me that anyone remains with the Watchtower.  If the Governing Body has never been correct in any date setting, how can you have confidence in anything they teach?  Today, there are two ex-JW for every present JW. You have the largest group of former members of any significiant religious body in the United States. Can you explain why you remain with them?


MRJ: Those that focus on mistakes of their fellow man will have a hard time understanding my view and the view of many other Witnesses. To put it into perspective, I remember hearing or reading about a person that was a Witness when it was discovered there would not just be 144,000 saved but there would be great crowd that no man would be able to number. This opened up salvation from Armageddon to every living person on earth. Now, back to that person that was still a Witness. He said, 'Our Good News of the Kingdom turned into GREAT NEWS of the Kingdom.'



Hi MrJordan, 


Great news, you say? When did this conversation take place, anyway?


Didn't you know the great crowd were taught they were a heavenly class of people......up until Judge Rutherford threw them out of heaven in 1935. 


You can call these false teachings "mistakes" all you want but that won't change the reality that they are false teachings, false prophecies, false dates, falsehoods that you've been sent to preach to others until the men on the governing body decide to change their false teachings to some other false teaching and send you out with that. 


Me thinks you guys need a light bulb that isn't shorting out all the time.


Holly




Holly,


I'd like to reiterate Daniel 12:3,4


3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”


I'm afraid I do not see any abundant knowledge in your post here nor your information beneficial in bringing anyone to righteousness. Just abundant fault finding. You offer a new light bulb but instead hand me a brick to smash other people because of their imperfections. Knowledge of the bible improves a person. They understand how Jesus taught with love improves our chances of relaying our message. Those that understand the Good News, this news makes them happy and motivates them to share it. Your post does none of these things.


Perhaps rather than teaching what someone is doing wrong, you can use love and guide them to what you think is the correct 'road'.

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