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Switch to Forum Live View Jehovah's Witnesses joy concerning our changes in beliefs.
2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 3:52AM #141
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Understanding truth - Your words are human words.   Jehovah's Witnesses prefer to follow Scriptural counsel.


For example:


(Acts 17:11) Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.


I have repeatedly encouraged presentsimple to follow this counsel in her posts - but she rarely refers to Scripture either.   In fact, after posting a recent example of new light, as requested, she ignored my question entirely and failed to even address a single relevant Scripture!


I am not about to repost response to her - but I have certainly answered many times on many threads.  


And, my questions before her above post went unanswered.


Our recent book on Acts emphasizes the counsel in Acts 17:11, to wit:


"Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. Moreover, they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. And they did so with great "eagerness of mind," devoting themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for "many of them became believers." (Acts 17:12) No wonder Luke describes them as "noble-minded"!



17 Little did those Beroeans realize that the record of their reaction to the good news would be preserved in God’s Word as a shining example of spiritual noble-mindedness. They did precisely what Paul had hoped they would do and what Jehovah God wanted them to do. Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word. After we become believers, though, does the need to be noble-minded come to an end? On the contrary, it becomes ever more important that we be eager to learn from Jehovah and quick to apply his teachings. In that way, we allow Jehovah to mold us and train us according to his will. (Isa. 64:8) We thus remain useful and fully pleasing to our heavenly Father. - pp. 137-138


....


[Box on page 105]


‘Jehovah's Witnesses build their beliefs on the Bible’



  As amply demonstrated in the case of the early Christian congregation, the history of true worship is a record of progressive spiritual enlightenment. (Prov. 4:18; Dan. 12:4, 9, 10; Acts 15:7-9) Today, too, Jehovah’s people adjust their beliefs to conform to revealed truth; they do not force the Scriptures to fit their views. Impartial observers have recognized this fact. In his book Truth in Translation, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses approach the Bible "with a kind of innocence, and [build] their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there." - "“Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom," pp. 137, 138, 105


So, those of you who disagree with our teachings should explain why Scripturally - I am not going to respond to mere human rhetoric unless it relates to what the Bible actually states.




Moderated by nanalulu222 on May 08, 2012 - 09:45AM
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 4:05AM #142
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

May 7, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Ed_3 wrote:


May 7, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Oeste wrote:


Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:12AM, Newtonian wrote:


What's next?  Who will post new light on the Scriptures?   Well, I will:




Next?


PST's questions remain largely unanswered.


Also, I'm curious how you figure the resurrection of the "ancient worthies", the admonishment against alumininum pots and pans,  incorrect information about vaccines, and the run-up to 1975 was "food at the proper time".


Leadings one's sheep to astro-turf does not sound like "food at the proper time". And once you start feeding, it really doesn't matter how bright the light shines in the stadium. The grass will still make you sick.



Well, that's the question that hasn't been answered by JWs for years...which is: How are the incorrect teachings by the Watchtower 'food at the proper time'? Also, if the incorrect teachings by the Watchtower isn't considered 'food at the proper time,' but are erroneous teachings until the correct food comes at the proper time, then what would Jehovah's purpose be in allowing the 'bad' or incorrect food to be fed, which has caused pain, heartache, and confusion for the JWs who had to feed on the incorrect teachings during the time period when those incorrect teachings existed?




Ed - No incorrect teachings have caused pain since I have started studying in 1956.


I guess you have forgotten my posts on this subject, and thus your post.   Also are you mocking the Scripture which states "food at the proper time?"   Or are you seeking to understand it?


(Matthew 24:45) “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?


So, what does that mean - what is the food at the proper time?


I will give you an example of 'confusion' by the apostles before increased light helped them appreciate that the Jerusalem in Biblical restoration prophecies was to be heavenly Jerusalem as in Hebrews 12:22.    Note the apostles confusion shown in this leading question to Jesus:


(Acts 1:6) When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”


The apostles had the timing wrong, and also the wrong Israel.  When were these meals, food at the proper time, given to Jesus' followers?   And why did God allow them to have these misunderstandings up until that time?


Notice also that the above response to me you are quoting omits the new light I posted and the questions I posted and proceeds to bait and switch - typical debate tactics. 


In my next post I will repost that recent example of new light on the Scriptures from the faithful slave and see if anyone will actually respond.




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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 4:11AM #143
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Apr 1, 2012 -- 9:12AM, Newtonian wrote:


What's next?  Who will post new light on the Scriptures?   Well, I will:


"When did the Anglo-American World Power become the seventh world power of Bible prophecy?" - "The Watchtower," 6/15/12, p. 19


Again, this article/issue is available for free download at our download site which I linked to above.


The increased light?


"From the perspective of Bible prophecy, then, the seventh world power did not become established in the late 1700’swhen Britain first began its rise to prominence. Rather, it attained that position at the beginning of the Lord’s day.  


This explanation updates the information discussed on page 57, paragraph 24, of the Daniel’s Prophecy book and depicted in the charts on pages 56 and 139." - Ibid., p. 19


This does not change the three horns that the little horn humiliates - see the study articles in the same issue for detail.


If you (you all) are interested in what the Bible really teaches, then what were the 3 horns that were humiliated by the little horn - all of which come from the 4th beast of Daniel, the 10 horns of the disintegrating Roman Empire.


(Daniel 7:7, 8) . . .“After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns. 8 I kept on considering the horns, and, look! another horn, a small one, came up in among them, and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it. And, look! there were eyes like the eyes of a man in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking grandiose things.


(Daniel 7:24) . . .And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate.


So which three kings were humiliated?


Hint, all 4 horns are involved in the formation of the United States.


One involved the change in name from New Amsterdam to New York City.


Anyone know?






Ed & you all - Notice I presaged the questions with this: If you (you all) are interested in what the Bible really teaches....


Notice those who responded showed by their responses they really did not want me to post new light on the Scriptures, and proceeded to ignore the new light I posted, and also showed zero interest in what the Bible really teaches!


Now, Ed, you entered the thread after my post was somewhat buried by bait and switch - which is why I have reposted the new light and the questions to see if you might be interested in what the Bible really teaches!

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 10:05AM #144
Kemmer
Posts: 16,265

Notice those who responded showed by their responses they really did not want me to post new light on the Scriptures, and proceeded to ignore the new light I posted, and also showed zero interest in what the Bible really teaches!



Perhaps your "new lights" had best be saved to regale your co-religionists at KH meetings as "what the bible really teaches" has been known for many centuries.


Certainly you must recognized how strange it sounds to Christians when JWs insist that God is spoon-feeding information to your leaders which often cancels or augments previous "revelations".


It makes God appear to be some sort of an indecisive ditz who frequently changes his mind about stuff.  And that is surely not the image Christians have of God.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 12:53PM #145
Oeste
Posts: 3,338

May 8, 2012 -- 3:52AM, Newtonian wrote:


Understanding truth - Your words are human words.   Jehovah's Witnesses prefer to follow Scriptural counsel.



Of course they were human words Newt! They words were his testimony!


Is there something about human testimony that you do not understand? Also, can you show us where UT failed to follow scriptural counsel???


May 8, 2012 -- 3:52AM, Newtonian wrote:


For example:


(Acts 17:11) Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.


I have repeatedly encouraged presentsimple to follow this counsel in her posts - but she rarely refers to Scripture either.   In fact, after posting a recent example of new light, as requested, she ignored my question entirely and failed to even address a single relevant Scripture!


I am not about to repost response to her - but I have certainly answered many times on many threads. 



How are your responses answers Newt?


The fact is, IPT is following Acts 17:11. You're frustrated because she continues to follow Act 17:11 rather than the Watchtower.


May 8, 2012 -- 3:52AM, Newtonian wrote:


Our recent book on Acts emphasizes the counsel in Acts 17:11, to wit:


"Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. Moreover, they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. And they did so with great "eagerness of mind," devoting themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for "many of them became believers." (Acts 17:12) No wonder Luke describes them as "noble-minded"!



17 Little did those Beroeans realize that the record of their reaction to the good news would be preserved in God’s Word as a shining example of spiritual noble-mindedness. They did precisely what Paul had hoped they would do and what Jehovah God wanted them to do. Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word. After we become believers, though, does the need to be noble-minded come to an end? On the contrary, it becomes ever more important that we be eager to learn from Jehovah and quick to apply his teachings. In that way, we allow Jehovah to mold us and train us according to his will. (Isa. 64:8) We thus remain useful and fully pleasing to our heavenly Father. - pp. 137-138




WOW!


What was that "17" in the last paragraph above Newt? The one I highlighted in blue? Is this some sort of allusion to scripture? And from what book? The book of Watchtower?


Also, I loved the red, it really helps to emphasize these "scriptural" or near scriptural points.


May 8, 2012 -- 3:52AM, Newtonian wrote:

ehovah's Witnesses build their beliefs on the Bible’



  As amply demonstrated in the case of the early Christian congregation, the history of true worship is a record of progressive spiritual enlightenment. (Prov. 4:18; Dan. 12:4, 9, 10; Acts 15:7-9) Today, too, Jehovah’s people adjust their beliefs to conform to revealed truth; they do not force the Scriptures to fit their views. Impartial observers have recognized this fact. In his book Truth in Translation, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses approach the Bible "with a kind of innocence, and [build] their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there." - "“Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom," pp. 137, 138, 105


So, those of you who disagree with our teachings should explain why Scripturally - I am not going to respond to mere human rhetoric unless it relates to what the Bible actually states.



NEWSFLASH...


The paragraph you just posted was "mere human rhetoric" Newt. It was not scripture, it merely had scriptural references. Do you understand that just because a comment with scriptural reference  appears in a Watchtower publication, it has no more weight than a comment and scriptural reference from anywhere else...which is the whole point and premise of IPT's assertion?


Let's look at what the bible REALLY teaches, Newt.


  11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17)


So the Berean looked "....to see if what Paul said was true"! You quoted this very same scripture earlier, remember? So what would have happened if, instead of Paul, Newt had appeared before the Bereans?


So we're going to take your next statement, and apply Berean logic to it Newt.


Imperfectense, Understanding Truth, Kemmer, Ed, others and I are sitting in the back of the Berean congregation in Thessalonia. You've just announced yourself from the Brooklyn congregation and you open with the following statement:


May 8, 2012 -- 4:05AM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - No incorrect teachings have caused pain since I have started studying in 1956.



Were going to test this assertion in a very Berean fashion. We're going "to see if what Newt said was true" the same way the Bereans tested "to see if what Paul said was true".


We'll do this in my next post. But for any others sitting in the back of the congregation, please feel free to speak up. And after we do this with Newt's statement, we can do the sames with some bona fide Watchtower statements too.


We can have a very Berean time, unless you want to retract the statement in blue, which I take (perhaps wrongly) as dismissive of UT's testimony and the testimony of thousands of others that have left the Watchtower organization. If so, we'll just concentrate on the Watchtower statements.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:40PM #146
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,198

So the irony's not lost:


Were going to test this assertion in a very Berean fashion. We're going "to see if what [Paul aka] Newt said was true" the same way the Bereans tested "to see if what [the apostle] Paul said was true".



Running to get some popcorn ... 

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 6:45PM #147
Kemmer
Posts: 16,265

 Today, too, Jehovah’s people adjust their beliefs to conform to revealed truth; they do not force the Scriptures to fit their views.



To an "outsider", a Bereanesque observation might be that "Jehovah's people" adjust their beliefs as human knowledge advances and previous "beliefs" become obsolete.   Then there is a mad scramble to discover something in scripture to justify this adjustment.  And voilà!  A "new" revealed truth cancelling out an old one.


Just sayin'.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 7:24PM #148
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:33PM #149
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

I know for a fact that I can take any open minded individual through a study of any religious theory / idiology by using a minimum of 4 versions of the bible & a Strongs Exhostive Concordance & we can easily follow the list of scriptures for any given word or words in relation to a particular teaching & look at Gods contexts to determine the scope of meaning straight from God Himself (His word).


 


You don't need anyone to break it down & define it for you because God has already done this, all you need to do is trust in His Holy Spirit to show you His Truth right in front of your face.  If you follow the trail that God has already given using this simple research method you will find out what real Truth looks like & it aint what JW's are selling.


 


Of corse you have to be willing to leave what you think you know behind & willing to listen to what God wants to teach you about Himself.  If you can't leave your own thinking behind or that of the individuals you follow then how is God going to teach you?  It is always your choice.


 


Again I say what is there to loose if what I say is wrong you will certainly find out as you research Gods Word through this very simple, direct & accurate form of study what truth looks like.  However you cannot forget to ask God to show you what His real truth is in prayer & trust that He loves you & wants you to know Him.


 


This is going to be real hard for people who have given their freedom to pray & know God directly & personally over to a religion that is telling them they cannot learn on their own.  One that teaches God has designated them alone to teach and any other avenue to learn is false.  If you have bought into this you have been lied to & all you need to do is seek God in your private inner space where no one can see or hear what you are doing.


 


If you think you have real truth I challenge you to test this out by testing God not man for real truth.  Seek Him in your heart & ask Him to impart His truth directly in your heart & in your mind without using any other external sources accept His Word.  No messangers, no one elses writings just His and you can use a concordance as you reserch His Word.  If He hears you and your hearts intent is truly to find Him He will reveal Himself by clearly showing you in your heart & in your mind who He is without anyone else having to explain Him to you.


 


Again what is there to loose, if I am wrong then you will know but if I am right you will have your answeron the inside & how are you going to argue with Gods Work.  Satan can only work from external sources so shut them down & seek God internally if you realy want to know what real truth is.  Seek Him in His Word and in the inner man & see if God will not answer your prayers.  You must be sincere in your desire to know Him and He will answer you.


 


You see as long as you depend on someone else for your truth there is no way you can realy know if it is actually true or not.  You have to guage all truth through your sinful flesh and your ability to judge fact from fiction.  All of the external evidances are superficial & in all honesty they all can have multiple explanations & can be manipulated for multiple purposes (Look at the enormouse debates over texts).  But if God reaches into your heart & your mind & imparts His Spirit then how are you going to deny or misunderstand that? 


 


That is what Satan fears more than anything & that is why he has his servants constantly seeking to create confusion and traps to keep individuals away from finding God & His Truth.  Seek Him in your private inner space through prayer & study His Word.  Seek Him like a man seeking bread from his neighbor in the middle of the night or a widow seeking justice or like someone who found & barried a valuable treasure in a field, who sold everything to buy that field & posses the treasure.  Seek God with your whole heart, mind, body & soul but do so in a space where no one can fill your mind from external sources.  Some place where Satan cannot find a way to decieve you.  Allow God to fill you in ways only He can do and then it will be clear to you who Satan is & how he works & who God is & what His Truth is.


 


Please go seek Him & don't quit until He answers you on the inside not the outside.  He will do this for you & you will be saved, you will be born again in the Spirit which simply means He will give you His Spirit.  It is not just for those who claim special privledge, it is for everyone who loves, seeks & obeys God. 


 


Satan divided against Satan cannot stand, what can you loose from doing what I just said?  Oh bot just think of what you could gain & Satan defonantly doesn't want you to get this.  Think about it, I just told you to do the one thing Satan can't realy tamper with so Please go seek Him!!!!   


 


 


God Bless! 

Moderated by nanalulu222 on May 09, 2012 - 08:40AM
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 8:39PM #150
understandingtruth
Posts: 203

I will do my part as I always do by praying for whoever reads & follows this advice.  God will do the rest, God Bless!

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